I also teach Java/AP in addition to teaching Python (and sometimes C). I would generally agree with Jorge and Hélène, although over the years, I've come to find both the nature of the AP and the choice of Java more irritating. Our parents and administration ARE interested primarily in results, whether I like it or not, and the AP exam forces me to spend my time a little differently than I would like. And Java IMHO is just not well designed for novice programmers working on relatively small programs. So I guess I would find a Python based AP an improvement, but the direction we're heading at the moment is towards a dual enrollment course offered through the local university. If we can make that work, then students will get college credit without some of the drawbacks of the AP system itself. Cheers, Vern On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 7:49 PM, Helene Martin <lognaturel@gmail.com> wrote:

I teach AP computer science and a course I call Creative Computing that uses Python as the tool for exploring computing (see http://garfieldcs.com for full course descriptions and daily activities).

Java does have some ugly syntax but overall I love teaching the AP course. I aim to make my students into curious people with great problem-solving skills and I hardly ever mention the AP test itself. Though the test is heavily object-oriented, I teach procedural-style Java first since I think strong mental models of computation are what will benefit the majority of my students as they move on to whatever it is they will be doing. When I do introduce OO, students see it as a useful form of abstraction and see the need for it as their programs had been getting unwieldy. Despite only covering object-oriented programming in the tail end of my course and using the GridWorld case study for a couple of projects, my students have so far done very well on the AP test (disclaimer: I only had one section of 22 last year and now have about 80 students so we'll see how things go this year). I think it's very possible to focus on producing great thinkers and to see the test just as a validation of that process.

This may be an unpopular view around these parts but I feel that the pedagogical philosophy guiding a course is far more important to look at than the language it's taught in. Yes, many AP CS courses seem to take this rote plod-through-the-material-for-the-test approach but I don't think that has anything to do with Java. It would be possible to teach a Python course in just that way, too. All in all, Java and Python are fairly similar tools and shouldn't be treated as ends but just a means to explore computation, I think. Just changing the language of the AP test probably wouldn't change the courses teaching related classes very much is my guess. That is, of course, unless there were a push for great professional development and more continuous support for classroom teachers.

Hélène Martin http://helenemartin.com

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Today I attended a meeting of the Georgia chapter of the Computer Science Teachers Association. Most of the focus was on how to better teach the AP Computer Science exam and Java but I did learn a few things at the meeting. Are any of the K12 educators here that are using Python also teaching AP Computer Science?

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From speaking with the people at the meeting I got the idea that the AP Computer Science test would eventually transition to Python. Does anyone know more about this?

Also, from their descriptions of teaching the AP class it seemed like the is focus is mainly on preparing for the test...do you think that the AP course using Python would be a good thing or a bad thing for educators using Python? I think I prefer keeping my focus on producing great Python

On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 4:24 PM, Zac Miller <zmiller@gsc.edu> wrote: programmers instead of on an exam.

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Interested in any opinions out there.

-Zac Miller

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-- This time for sure! -Bullwinkle J. Moose ----------------------------- Vern Ceder, Director of Technology Canterbury School, 3210 Smith Road, Ft Wayne, IN 46804 vceder@canterburyschool.org; 260-436-0746; FAX: 260-436-5137 The Quick Python Book, 2nd Ed - http://bit.ly/bRsWDW

I teach two courses that are new to my school this year using SAGE and by extension python. I also teach AP CompSci (used to be AB now A). The first is a rewrite of my "Computer Math" course using Maria and Gary Litvin's new text "Mathematics for the Digital Age." This course used to be an intro to computer science and is a pre-requisite to AP Computer Science the following year. Now its more of a Discrete Math class but we use SAGe and do plenty of python. Mainly Regents track Juniors and Honors track Sophomores take this. The second is a lab course, "Calculus Research Lab" (I wanted to call "Scientific Computing Lab," but my boss changed it), that meets every other day like a science class for my AP Calculus BC students. We use several free pdf texts from http://www.sagenath.org to do Calculus in a computer lab setting and we use some python. These students are very over scheduled, so this new lab is not required. To get enough kids to sign up for this new course, I had to open it up to the AP Calculus AB students too so there's a lot of review for my BC kids which ain't all bad. HTH, A. Jorge Garcia http://shadowfaxrant.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/calcpage2009 Teacher & Professor Applied Mathematics, Physics & Computer Science Baldwin Senior High School & Nassau Community College

Here in my district, both AP and IB tracks are offered. The latter definitely has more prestige, as in snob appeal, and is frankly a more robust curriculum. They're reading Howard Zinn for history already, the Euros require it. Then we have other step ladders into promising trajectories, such as apprenticeships through Saturday Academy (where I'm sometimes discovered), OHSU (teaching medical facility), and variously tagged programs with the Urban League, AFSC, lots of stuff I don't know about. Some of these involve community service, which is important to many academic institutions (some more than others). Python fits in through Saturday Academy, where I've led numerous classes, including for the Hillsboro Police Dept (where Intel is), also at Oregon Graduate Institute, Portland State, and Reed College this summer. These students have ranged from roughly 12 to 18 years of age, otherwise quite a mixed demographic, not always English as a first language. However, I don't bill my Python classes as Computer Science so much, given political pressure to make this be Math, and therefore not an elective. You may stick to the traditional math track, or you may switch to something more computer science like, but your required three years for a high school diploma will by fulfilled either way -- which isn't to say you can't take more math than the minimum. My expectation is that even more step ladders, with over-the- Internet testing (at certified testing centers in many cases) will assess candidate students for many interesting work / study programs. These programs will give USAers more opportunities to venture overseas, which is always a plus when it comes to developing geographic awareness. Seeing more of the world is well nigh a mandatory prerequisite for many responsible positions. Probably that's why IB has such currency (even over AP): it's a ticket to some better placements. However, let me show my ignorance and say I don't really know what IB has by way of computer programming. I didn't do IB in high school, dove into CS as a minor at Princeton, with philosophy more front and center. I just uploaded some pictures of my bookshelves to give the flavor, if anyone cares to take a peak. On the other hand, I did score well on my AP exams and placed directly into honors calculus, coulda done college in 3 years if I'd floored the gas pedal, but why race through a good time in the 'hood? Where else was I gonna learn more, before diving into high school math teaching in the inner city (a few train stops from World Trade Center? I later worked in publishing (McGraw-Hill) and learned a lot about what makes the education industry tick. The Internet is a disruptive technology, which is both the good news and the bad news.

From my standpoint, Python is better positioned than Java because it has more street cred in OSS circles (also OERs) whereas the Java community stayed more proprietary for longer. The developing world is fascinated by Cyberia (as in cyberspace) and its promise of free educational materials.

Having legally free operating systems makes a big difference when hard currency is scarce. Both Python and Java work well in that ecosystem, whereas Visual Studio does not. Part of what Hillsboro Police wanted us to teach was how to use power tools while keeping it legal. No worries about facing accusations of piracy when you've got IBM on the same wavelength. Yes, that's an oversimplification about Visual Studio not being as academically viable (given Mono etc. -- pronounced Moe Know, not Mah No), but having something as powerful as Python running legally for free is nothing to sneeze at. Java too. I work the chat line with students in Indonesia as well as Portland, finding eager learners across the board. Not waiting for school teachers to "make you" is one of the secrets to success, I think we'd all agree. Kirby PS: I also work with adults, such as doing that recent gig at Johns Hopkins in Baltimore with the space telescope people. Here in Portland, I'm networked with a bevy of "rad math" teachers. Here's another one: http://punkmathematics.com/ (you may be aware of the edupunk movement, which seeks to bypass a lot of the established channels by means of OERs etc. -- lots of bloggers focus on it, so I'll avoid being overly redundant here).