Also as to the VPython distro: Guido has unambigiously stated a strong preference that IDLE start in interactive mode. (He can correct me if I am wrong).
From my point of view, as the stated preference of the Developer of IDLE (not the BDFL) , I would and will respect that preference.
Bruce simply does not see any significance to the interactive prompt. Incredibly. He states so repeatedly. The VPython distro - despite, I think, Bruce knowing full well Guido 's preference - imposes his own preference on the One And Only IDLE, over Guido's. So after the VPython install, the One and Only IDLE starts up as a text editor. And will do so forever for any user who does not understand the fact that there is an ability to reset the default back to where it started - Interactive Mode. In other words, precisely the user for whom Guido, it seems to me, feels it important that the Interactive Mode be default. Guido wrote the foundation code. David Scherer, Kurt Kaiser , and others made significant contributions to its development. Bruce - always, it seem to me, for good reason - pisses me off. Art
You are correct that Guido wants the default to be that IDLE start in the shell, not in an edit window, and he is not comfortable with the autosave feature, but IDLE does have features for changing these behaviors, both of which come from the VPython project and were innovations implemented by Dave Scherer. This is why the VPython installer instructions say very explicitly that these defaults are reversed by this installer, and alerts users to this. There was some discussion during the long idlefork development that the way to customize IDLE could include changing config-main.def, which was to be considered a legitimate move. That's how I knew how to achieve this effect. For a huge number of users of VPython known to me (hundreds of students) it is important that IDLE start in an edit window and do autosaves. I've tried in various forums to explain what data these decisions are based on, and I won't repeat all of that here. I've prominently documented in the installer instructions what the situation is, and it is easy for a user to change it (and I'm open to improved wording of this). It makes sense to put a minor burden on the more sophisticated user rather than on the less sophisticated user (the latter alternative would be to start in the shell and disable autosave, but explain in the installer how to change this; abundant experience with users new to Python shows that the fewer the instructions the better, by a lot). By the way, all users will see the shell, because that's what the output window is. Arthur, I do appreciate your writing up your concerns. I think you're right in your previous note to say that the desktop icon should be "IDLE for VPython" as it was when using the predecessor to the new IDLE, or some such, and I'll be happy to change it. I was a bit wary of this name because it could perhaps be misconstrued as claiming all of the new IDLE as a product of the VPython effort, which it is only in part. Maybe you or someone can come up with a better icon name (something like "IDLE - VPython demos", although you have to do an Open to get a demo). I'll wait a few days to see what suggestions crop up. Thanks. Bruce Sherwood Arthur wrote:
Also as to the VPython distro:
Guido has unambigiously stated a strong preference that IDLE start in interactive mode. (He can correct me if I am wrong).
From my point of view, as the stated preference of the Developer of IDLE (not the BDFL) , I would and will respect that preference.
Bruce simply does not see any significance to the interactive prompt.
Incredibly. He states so repeatedly.
The VPython distro - despite, I think, Bruce knowing full well Guido 's preference - imposes his own preference on the One And Only IDLE, over Guido's.
So after the VPython install, the One and Only IDLE starts up as a text editor. And will do so forever for any user who does not understand the fact that there is an ability to reset the default back to where it started - Interactive Mode. In other words, precisely the user for whom Guido, it seems to me, feels it important that the Interactive Mode be default.
Guido wrote the foundation code. David Scherer, Kurt Kaiser , and others made significant contributions to its development.
Bruce - always, it seem to me, for good reason - pisses me off.
Art
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You are correct that Guido wants the default to be that IDLE start in the shell, not in an edit window, and he is not comfortable with the autosave feature
Bruce, I would like to remind you that I had some time ago, at considerable effort, created - essentially for your benefit - a prototype Standalone VPython. In a Python runtime environment. With full Inno set-up files completed. And made it available for download. Indicating to you that it was my opinion that this might be the simplest approach that would allow you full "rights" to customize to your hearts content, and while actually putting *less* of a burden on your users than you are currently - while avoiding assaults by the likes of me, who feels your current approach is not fully responsible. One download, all complete. There were posts to the list indicating some definite interest in this approach. At least as a possible alternative, and something to explore. That's the last I heard of it. Some clue, maybe? Art
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Arthur -
Bruce Sherwood