Re: The right learning environment
Jeff writes -
Is this missing from Python UI (IDLE, PythonWin, PyCrust)? Couldn't these User Interfaces have an addition window for a lesson or other resource to appear?
One man's bug is another man's feature. Can I ask you why it is important that the lesson appear as a window of the user interface? Would an html page in a browser work - that approach having become more or less the standard way of supplementing a GUI with help or any other text and graphic based supplementary material? What of course is much more interesting and important is what the *content* of those lessons will be - whether they pop out of the GUI window or exist in a separate web page. I plead absolutely guilty of having helped get edu-sig off on another discussion of form at the expense of content - ironically having done so in trying to make the point that perhaps the interface is not at all that important, There seems to be some prevailing sentiment otherwise. I will respectfully disagree, and go silent on the issue. But would love to join any discussion of curriculum content - about which I of course also have a host of opinions (along with a decent amount of code). Sad and ironic that the most satisfying discussions I have had about Python and education have been conducted outside the Python community - mostly with me as an advocate, and - from all I can ell - seeming to be making perfect sense to people. Impressive people. And here I never get a sense of making sense at all. Yes, I find it frustrating. Art
At 10:30 PM 3/20/2002 -0500, Arthur wrote:
Sad and ironic that the most satisfying discussions I have had about Python and education have been conducted outside the Python community - mostly with me as an advocate, and - from all I can tell - seeming to be making perfect sense to people. Impressive people.
I don't find that sad. It's good news. Here and elsewhere among Pythonistas, I think you'll find little argument re Python's suitability as a teaching language. Only preaching to the choir is what'd be sad. As for the specifics of pedagogy, that varies with the audience (past experience important) and the teacher (ditto).
And here I never get a sense of making sense at all.
Yeah, I couldn't understand how pushing Notepad made any sense -- a sucky little program :-D. But now I think you just meant "any ol' text editor" -- you were advocating unbundling Python from any specific IDE. I don't have a huge problem with that -- I just think newbies should know what's available, starting with IDLE simply because it installs with the product (unless you skip the Tk install). Because Python doesn't have a native GUI, but is designed to piggy back on other GUI-builder languages which export an API, it makes some sense to have a GUI text editor for programming in which Python itself has a glue language role -- makes the shell and/or editor you're using be a demonstration of Python's abilities. IDLE fits this bill as well (but so do other IDEs). PyCrust is certainly a useful tool -- last I checked, it was a shell, w/o a text editor, and this would promote the kind of unbundled approach you're advocating. And as long as the shell is in the picture (and I prefer GUI-based, but it's not mandatory), I think we're doing Python justice. What I don't like are teaching approaches heavily influenced by C or Java which pretend you can only write scripts/programs, and don't explore the interactive potential of a command line environment. Yet the latter is a wonderfuls scratch pad in which to test/learn the basics of the language, with immediate feedback. To bypass the shell is to make a huge pedagogical error, IMO. Kirby
Yes, I find it frustrating.
Art
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[Kirby Urner]
PyCrust is certainly a useful tool -- last I checked, it was a shell, w/o a text editor, and this would promote the kind of unbundled approach you're advocating. And as long as the shell is in the picture (and I prefer GUI-based, but it's not mandatory), I think we're doing Python justice.
That is still the case. PyCrust is a shell plus a namespace tree view. The GUI is wxPython, to be precise. These days I find myself using IDLE most often as my editor, though I sometimes use Vim and Boa as well. --- Patrick K. O'Brien Orbtech
participants (3)
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Arthur Siegel -
Kirby Urner -
Patrick K. O'Brien