Re: [Edu-sig] Low Enrollments
At 07:35 13/10/2005, Toby Donaldson wrote:
I think when a kid says "engineering is too hard", they are also saying that they don't see the rewards of engineering as very significant. I really don't see kids as being afraid to work hard; quite the opposite, I am often amazed at how hard students will work on something that is interesting and valuable to them.
Could it also be because Engineering is never advertised as being creative? Certainly when I was looking at doing civil & environmental engineering it was sold as "You get to direct large machines, follow someone else's plans, and make sure the concrete is poured in the right place". OK a bit of an overexaggeration, but no creativity or innovation appeared in the description. I would have loved to study cartography or photography which would satisfy my creativity, but neither had good job prospects, so I did physics instead (which is supposed to - if you want to employ a masters graduate who's done his project on teaching programming to unwilling physics undergraduates, contact me).
Doctors and nurses make a difference every day. This is why they put up with grueling work schedules. They love their jobs, and they see first-hand the difference they make. The rewards are tangible and obvious ("for every death a birth, for every sickness a cure").
Mind you that applies to most jobs, from journalist to author to teacher to musician. I've yet to meet a passionate accountant, which leads me back to the role of creativity in a job. Peter -- Maple Design - quality web design and programming http://www.mapledesign.co.uk
-----Original Message----- From: edu-sig-bounces@python.org [mailto:edu-sig-bounces@python.org] On Behalf Of Peter Bowyer Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 3:57 AM To: edu-sig@python.org Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Low Enrollments
Could it also be because Engineering is never advertised as being creative? Certainly when I was looking at doing civil & environmental engineering it was sold as "You get to direct large machines, follow someone else's plans, and make sure the concrete is poured in the right place". OK a bit of an overexaggeration, but no creativity or innovation appeared in the description.
Like learning Java. Art
From: edu-sig-bounces@python.org [mailto:edu-sig-bounces@python.org] On Behalf Of Peter Bowyer Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 3:57 AM To: edu-sig@python.org Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Low Enrollments
Could it also be because Engineering is never advertised as being creative? Certainly when I was looking at doing civil & environmental engineering it was sold as "You get to direct large machines, follow someone else's plans, and make sure the concrete is poured in the right place". OK a bit of an overexaggeration, but no creativity or innovation appeared in the description.
It seems to me the issues here are all tied together quite neatly with some of the discussion of the previous thread - small business vs. large business, the impact of companies like Microsoft (well maybe mostly just Microsoft) in the marketplace and on traditional notions of the relationship of large companies to educational institutions, etc. Though, unfortunately, I don't see a way to make these tie-ins in a few words. Suffice it to say that there is zero question, none - that Microsoft's tactics over the last 15 years have had the effect of stifling the impetus of smaller players to direct efforts towards innovation in a very wide swatch of the potential area for such innovation. This isn't a quirky, iconoclastic view of things. The fact is certainly getting noticed in very mainstream industry analysis. And at Microsoft, I'm sure. The days of the creative, innovative, entrepreneurial developer allowing themselves to spend their energies to become the uncompensated market research department of a Microsoft are over. A whole vibrant market segment has simply dried up and gone away. Which doesn't yet touch on Microsoft's ability to influence agendas in academic settings. I could go for pages, talking to a good degree from a personal frame of reference, talking about circumstances that I have been close enough to observe where Microsoft has seen fit to assert its clout, and managed to move mountains that by the charters and mission statements of the organizations involved should have been quite unmovable. To the extent that the CS departments have allowed, and continue to allow, themselves to be company towns for the major industry players, they deserve what they get. And if what they get is a lack of interest, maybe that is saying something optimistic about who our kids are today. Art
Hello Arthur, Saturday, October 15, 2005, 9:04:48 AM, you wrote: A> It seems to me the issues here are all tied together quite neatly with some A> of the discussion of the previous thread - small business vs. large A> business, the impact of companies like Microsoft (well maybe mostly just A> Microsoft) in the marketplace and on traditional notions of the A> relationship of large companies to educational institutions, etc. Microsoft's affect on our CS department is noticeable. It mainly consists of giving us Visual Studio and other software for free, and that a small number of our faculty are stricken by Microsoft worship. A> Suffice it to say that there is zero question, none - that Microsoft's A> tactics over the last 15 years have had the effect of stifling the impetus A> of smaller players to direct efforts towards innovation in a very wide A> swatch of the potential area for such innovation. This isn't a quirky, A> iconoclastic view of things. The fact is certainly getting noticed in very A> mainstream industry analysis. And at Microsoft, I'm sure. The days of the A> creative, innovative, entrepreneurial developer allowing themselves to spend A> their energies to become the uncompensated market research department of a A> Microsoft are over. A whole vibrant market segment has simply dried up and A> gone away. I have witnessed this and agree. A> Which doesn't yet touch on Microsoft's ability to influence agendas in A> academic settings. A> To the extent that the CS departments have allowed, and continue to allow, A> themselves to be company towns for the major industry players, they deserve A> what they get. And if what they get is a lack of interest, maybe that is A> saying something optimistic about who our kids are today. I have been a force for company independence, and our department has pretty much remained so. However, just Thursday we had our semi-annual advisory meeting with representatives from local industry, including small companies as well as Symantec and Novell. They are pretty much unanimous in their excitement for .NET. They want more C# programmers. Interesting. They did get excited about my bringing up Python though - as a first language, and also for workplace use (I teach Python at Symantec). -- Best regards, Chuck
-----Original Message----- From: Chuck Allison [mailto:chuck@freshsources.com] Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 12:16 PM To: Arthur Cc: 'Peter Bowyer'; edu-sig@python.org Subject: Re[2]: [Edu-sig] Low Enrollments They are pretty much unanimous in their excitement for .NET. They want more C# programmers. Interesting.
The best thing that could happen, from my point of view, is for all the major industry players to commit together to the wrong technology. Could open things up, again. I am hoping that *that* is the role that .Net ends up playing. And by wrong technology, it doesn't mean that the technology is wrong. Just means that there end up being forces beyond their control (there still are a few things like that ;)) that ending up working against its acceptance. When the French revolutionists sort to decimalize time, they had both absolute power and a good deal of logic on their side. And failed nonetheless. Art
-----Original Message----- From: Arthur [mailto:ajsiegel@optonline.net]
When the French revolutionists sort to decimalize time, they had both absolute power and a good deal of logic on their side. And failed nonetheless.
Of course they only had such power within their own domain, and - particularly since they were most definitely not playing nice with others, not to mention a significant portion of themselves - much of the monarchist rest of civilization was quite in the mood to say black should they happen to say white. No matter how white and right they might have been on some particular point. So that decimalized time was stillborn. If .Net meets an unhappy fate for no better reason that it is a Microsoft initiative, and there are enough forces aligned (internationally) to reject its adoption for no better reason than that - I'm OK with it. Art
I am hoping that *that* is the role that .Net ends up playing.
Sounds like you're praying for a very expensive train wreck. Just to make education better? Pretty high price tag. If .NET is slated to go down the tubes, then kiss good-bye your online eticketing and ebanking sites that use it (many already do, more will). Do you have any strong feelings about J2EE? We should teach Sun's Java exclusively?
And by wrong technology, it doesn't mean that the technology is wrong. Just means that there end up being forces beyond their control (there still are a few things like that ;)) that ending up working against its acceptance.
That'd be bad for Python, given its great promise as a key dynamic language in upcoming Novell distros, as part of the GNOME desktop, and running atop Mono.[1]
When the French revolutionists sort to decimalize time, they had both absolute power and a good deal of logic on their side. And failed nonetheless.
Art
Decimal time is not unfamiliar in many technical applications. A common mistake is to think either/or. Not "astronomical OR atomic time" -- we can have both standards in play.[2] Kirby [1] http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS7372554664.html [2] http://worldgame.blogspot.com/2005/09/wanderers-200597.html
Hello Kirby/Arthur, Saturday, October 15, 2005, 12:30:54 PM, you wrote: FWIW, I see .NET catching on practically *everywhere*, and it doesn't seem like it's because it's hyped like Java was. It seems like developers and managers alike are genuinely happy with it. It seems like Microsoft finally got something right (first time - took them over twenty years). Personally, I'm happy with C++ and Python, but the .NET framework is a good piece of work. C++ is woefully lacking in support for threading, networking, web services, etc. Python is great but not fast enough. It was inevitable that Redmond would eventually do something good. Their support for Web Services is hard to beat, and that's the way of things these days. -- Best regards, Chuck
-----Original Message----- From: Chuck Allison [mailto:chuck@freshsources.com] Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 2:52 PM To: Kirby Urner Cc: 'Arthur'; edu-sig@python.org
It was inevitable that Redmond would eventually do something good.
And wouldn't it be wonderfully ironic if it's the first time they fail, big time. Not making a prediction. But some disruption to my online eticketing service would be worth the price of admission to a view of such an event unfolding. But if Kirby comes back with the argument that .Net is necessary to world peace, the elimination of hunger, and the realization of my son's potential - yes, I might bust. Watching *that* could be worth the price of admission, as well. ;) Art
But if Kirby comes back with the argument that .Net is necessary to world peace, the elimination of hunger, and the realization of my son's potential - yes, I might bust.
I'd just like to keep my eticketing and ebanking services undisrupted, thanks. I use them frequently. Your need to see Microsoft suffer disgrace is irrelevant in Kirby world. Kirby
To the extent that the CS departments have allowed, and continue to allow, themselves to be company towns for the major industry players, they deserve what they get. And if what they get is a lack of interest, maybe that is saying something optimistic about who our kids are today.
Art
Vilification of Microsoft is one way to go, certainly. Not an especially original approach. As I sometimes think of you as an investor, I'm somewhat surprised that your alternative to "bad companies" is "no companies" i.e. "because some companies exert a negative influence in the classroom, classrooms should be company-free zones." There's a leap in logic there, which a capitalist should not miss: why not just go with other companies? Why not make schools freer to choose collaborator firms, by ending any kind of top-down "district wide" or "state wide" sweetheart wheeling and dealing? That'd be a reform in the government sector, which a governor might get behind and even get re-elected on (people get suspicious of large bureaucracies with good reason). Like, a board made up of Franklin High's teachers, parents, and principal, might make a deal with Naked Ape, part of the POSSE here in Portland [1], to supplement Franklin High's Scheme training (already well-known and prized) with some Perl training (one of Naked Ape's specialties). Maybe a certified union teacher supervises the guest trainer, or maybe a trainer is on part time payroll in a charter school, with more lenient certification requirements, and is supervised by the principal. Or maybe the training is just for faculty (teacher in-service), and they pass their new knowledge on to their students (a well-known design pattern). As a small business with an interest in education, I have no problem walking into a local school and putting my spin on things, as any parent would. I'll openly talk up relevant community-based NGOs (e.g. Free Geek's Build Program), but I'll also share history. We're proud of our Oregon pioneers: Tek, HP, ESI... ISEPP/Wanderers wouldn't exist in its present shape without Mentor Graphics. Saturday Academy: another Silicon Forest creature and valued institution within our ecosystem. In my typical classroom gig, I'll talk about my adventures with Design Science Toys and StrangeAttractors (I used Python to develop the packaging). I talk up this or that Linux distro as being more user friendly and/or intelligently designed (some distros come from for-profit companies, with stock and everything). Maybe I'll mention my contract with Lawson and Associates, to do renderings of Flextegrity (another Python project, shared about here). And yes, I expect to talk about Microsoft technology, in the form of IronPython, plus share my high opinion of where .NET and Mono are going. I'm considering diving into IronPython with this group of 8th graders, maybe in 2006, even as I talk up Linux as a kick ass developers' platform. IronPython also runs on Linux. Kirby PS: Notice all this autobio. Makes more sense because yes, we really do have a Franklin High that teaches Scheme, a Naked Ape, Flextegrity. [1] http://www.possepdx.com/
participants (4)
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Arthur -
Chuck Allison -
Kirby Urner -
Peter Bowyer