The question 'is Linux in trouble?' is of course entirely rhetorical and it's not. The students I'm working with already have a well developed hacker ethic: if the source is closed, it's "for dummies" (meant pejoratively, like in the movie 'Idiocracy'). Geeks of tomorrow use what geeks of today use: intelligent stuff. But sure, let the dumb kids in the USA use their stoopid Microsoft. We all know the USA is at least five years behind when it comes to teaching math and science, so why not computers as well?

Kirby

OK, so I cooled off an mollified my position somewhat here: http://mathforum.org/kb/message.jspa?messageID=5674085&tstart=0 I've been feeling very friendly towards Bill of late, ever since his Foundation hired away a certain school superindent that's been nothing but trouble for us here in Portland. Yay Bill and Melinda, way to go! When it comes to proprietary/secret stuff, even Shuttleworth'll do that. It's simply *not* either/or and never has been in Silicon Forest. I've sparred with Stallman on precisely this issue: what if geeks don't see other geeks worthy of sharing with, in that opponent culture? Sometimes a counter-culture just reserves for its own, OK? Like, I probably won't be writing up my Saturday Academy classes in such detail any more. That's work I do for a paying client. If curious, enroll in a gnu math course near you, and experience the difference our charming snake makes. Kirby

2007/4/29, Ivan Krstić <krstic@solarsail.hcs.harvard.edu>:

Funny thing, that. The *old* hardware was also Windows-capable; it's why the SD-card slot was put in. It seems the news being reported are "it could run Windows before, but it'll be less sluggish now," and I'm not sure why people are getting riled up about it. The machines won't ship Windows by default, and no core OLPC dev effort is really going towards it.

Thank for these info. can't we suppose that now Microsoft will invest more effort and energy to have Windows run very correctly on OLPC then, when the government have decided to invest in OLPC insist that they get the OLPC on windows instead as the model on Linux (I understand that anyway the interface will be the same, aka sugar ?) Thanks Nicolas -- Nicolas Pettiaux - email: nicolas.pettiaux@ael.be

On 4/29/07, Jeff Rush <jeff@taupro.com> wrote:

kirby urner wrote:

...

...

The question 'is Linux in trouble?' is of course entirely rhetorical and it's not. The students I'm working with already have a well developed hacker ethic: if the source is closed, it's "for dummies" (meant pejoratively, like in the movie 'Idiocracy').

Kirby, I try to follow your posts but this one has me lost. You seem to be upset that Windows is in the OLPC picture, but then below you seem to be upset with the GNU folks re something about geeks worthy of sharing?

Above what I'm saying is the young hackers I work with understand and appreciate the value of an open source operating system and so won't forsake Linux just because Windows is maybe easier to use in some ways. This question about Linux being in trouble was from Slashdot, not me. I'm saying Redmond's inroads with OLPC, with a unit more expensive than originally targeted, won't interfere with the ongoing spread of the Linux to the developing young world. Below I'm saying I'm actually feeling friendly towards the Gates Foundation these days:

...

I've been feeling very friendly towards Bill of late, ever since his Foundation hired away a certain school superindent that's been nothing but trouble for us here in Portland. Yay Bill and Melinda, way to go!

When it comes to proprietary/secret stuff, even Shuttleworth'll do that. It's simply *not* either/or and never has been in Silicon Forest.

Hmmm, proprietary != secret, and the free/open software movement has never said there must be no secrets in general, just in source and even then under certain circumstances of distribution, so I'm struggling here.

Actually, proprietary and secret are *very similar* concepts. The easiest and most effective way to keep a driver proprietary is to not publish the source code. But of course you're right that much may be done to protect trade secrets and/or patents through licensing, other legal maneuvers. Those tend to fall apart internationally though, given lax enforcement -- it's easier to just *not share* the source code in the first place. And of course we all know that Linux is a primary platform for closed source applications.

...

I've sparred with Stallman on precisely this issue: what if geeks don't see other geeks worthy of sharing with, in that opponent culture?

And I've never thought of the free/open software movement as being an opponent culture... what am I missing?

You're missing the fact that many of us think of the free/open software movement as a counter-culture, fighting back against a more selfishly devised economy that artificially creates scarcity as a way to fuel corporate welfare for unimaginative lawyers, other brands of middle man. Engineers needed more freedom, a more intelligent way to collaborate. I think it's misguided to pretend new ethics of the bazaar aren't a threat to those of an old guard status quo cathedral.

...

Sometimes a counter-culture just reserves for its own, OK?

??? "reserves for its own"

Keeps unto itself, doesn't share willy nilly with the opposition. Has certain advantages ("high cards") which stay out of view, hidden, by design. Like you said yourself, nothing about GNU forbids us keeping our secrets.

...

Like, I probably won't be writing up my Saturday Academy classes in such detail any more. That's work I do for a paying client. If curious, enroll in a gnu math course near you, and experience the difference our charming snake makes.

Sarcasm, re not writing them up anymore or are you really making such a major shift in direction? What did GNU do to tick you off and make you close your materials?

-Jeff

Not closing my already published world-readable materials, e.g. my CP4E stuff @ Oregon Curriculum Network. Not ticked off at GNU folks per se. Just saying I encounter a lot of resistance and skepticism from snide math teachers who think "Pythonic math" should just go away and die. They pretend I'm lost in a private language, unable to communicate clearly, even as I document and cross-reference everything, write clearly, teach classes, otherwise make headway against the odds. So rather than help my competition by furnishing any amount of free source code, instructional videos and so on (what I've been doing), I'm now more inclined to give special advantages to inhouse gnu math teachers who share my ideological leanings. For example, Portland has an opportunity to leap frog other cities, when it comes to how it teaches math to its own. Do I want to work my butt off to make sure the competition at the University of Michigan gets all my best ideas for free? Actually no, I'd rather focus my energy where its appreciated and let those clinging to their competing math curricula fend for themselves. Bottom line: It's not my job to help my opponents become as effective as my team is becoming in the math teaching department. As die-hard buckaneer pyratical types, we'd rather compete (yar!). http://mybizmo.blogspot.com/2006/09/yar.html As a hacker geek steeped in open source hacker ethics, I still see very clearly why I'd want to keep secrets from the unworthy. And I'm doing so -- without being hypocritical or betraying my core values. Secrecy has its place. Anyway, I hope that clears things up for ya. As it stands, after writing the above, I went ahead and continued with my usual practice of documented my math teaching techniques in great detail -- more than I see most other teachers doing: http://mybizmo.blogspot.com/2007/04/class-notes-session-two.html I'm also working on a new movie about viztoyz.py -- but the high rez version won't be what you see in Google Video or in my blog. My gnu math teachers get first dibs. Kirby

On 4/29/07, Ivan Krstić <krstic@solarsail.hcs.harvard.edu> wrote:

Relax, take a deep breath, and don't believe everything you read.

OK thanks for the info. Anyway, I'm more focused on CP4E than OLPC: http://mybizmo.blogspot.com/2007/01/cp4e-versus-olpc.html Looks like Mark was on target with his prediction that the $100 target would not be met any time soon: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2007-April/007875.html Kirby

On 4/29/07, kirby urner <kirby.urner@gmail.com> wrote:

So rather than help my competition by furnishing any amount of free source code, instructional videos and so on (what I've been doing), I'm now more inclined to give special advantages to inhouse gnu math teachers who share my ideological leanings.

As a high school math / CS teacher actively teaching the "hacker ethic" via Python and free software, it is sad to consider that you would not contribute new work to the community. I haven't been able to locate the Oregon Curriculum Network online. Have you considered starting a group on a site like Curriki (curriki.org) or OERCommons (oercommons.org) to pool resources with other Pythonic math teachers? Kevin -- http://kevindriscoll.info/