Note: I think it'll be confusing for newcomers to read the following, and then encounter a strict "no politics" ban, only recently instituted and not spelled out on any python.org web page to date: === About Edu-sig English (USA) This list is the starting point for a community around the Computer Programming for Everybody (CP4E) project, and a general meeting place for educators interested in teaching Python. Currently the best description of CP4E is in the DARPA proposal that generated the initial funding. See also the edu-sig homepage. To see the collection of prior postings to the list, visit the Edu-sig Archives. === edu-sig has always been political (check the archives) and as the text above makes clear, has indeed been focussed on CP4E (I think very productively). This move to suppress political content and refocus the list is a departure from the status quo. I'd like to see this list renamed to cp4e-sig so it might keep its integrity and focus, while those with no stomach for politics start their own (possibly heavily moderated) group. They could even call it edu-sig. But we keep the archives and go forward as cp4e-sig, in alignment with the original mission statement and focus. Until such time as we've expunged all mention of CP4E from the current list's description, I think we should leave it to the list owner, Timothy Wilson, to perform any moderating duties, which might included quietly warning newcomers about the new rules. That's his job. Guido is just another subscriber here and shouldn't be forced into performing duties he's not signed up for. That'll just be confusing to everyone. Kirby
The list description is 7 years out of date, as *my* CP4E project ended when I left CNRI. And *my* CP4E project was certainly not intended to be political (in fact, the DARPA politics around funding made me abandon it). Feel free to petition the creation of an edu-politics@python.org list. Further discussion of this topic should be moved to meta-sig, the sig to discuss lists. (Added to the CC list.) But please don't steal my CP4E moniker. FWIW, the no-politics ban was long overdue. The archives show it. And please show me where the edu-sig homepage (which is much more informative than the mailman description) mentions politics. --Guido On 7/18/07, kirby urner <kirby.urner@gmail.com> wrote:
Note: I think it'll be confusing for newcomers to read the following, and then encounter a strict "no politics" ban, only recently instituted and not spelled out on any python.org web page to date:
=== About Edu-sig English (USA)
This list is the starting point for a community around the Computer Programming for Everybody (CP4E) project, and a general meeting place for educators interested in teaching Python.
Currently the best description of CP4E is in the DARPA proposal that generated the initial funding.
See also the edu-sig homepage.
To see the collection of prior postings to the list, visit the Edu-sig Archives. ===
edu-sig has always been political (check the archives) and as the text above makes clear, has indeed been focussed on CP4E (I think very productively).
This move to suppress political content and refocus the list is a departure from the status quo.
I'd like to see this list renamed to cp4e-sig so it might keep its integrity and focus, while those with no stomach for politics start their own (possibly heavily moderated) group. They could even call it edu-sig. But we keep the archives and go forward as cp4e-sig, in alignment with the original mission statement and focus.
Until such time as we've expunged all mention of CP4E from the current list's description, I think we should leave it to the list owner, Timothy Wilson, to perform any moderating duties, which might included quietly warning newcomers about the new rules. That's his job. Guido is just another subscriber here and shouldn't be forced into performing duties he's not signed up for. That'll just be confusing to everyone.
Kirby _______________________________________________ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
-- --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
On 7/18/07, Guido van Rossum <guido@python.org> wrote:
The list description is 7 years out of date, as *my* CP4E project ended when I left CNRI. And *my* CP4E project was certainly not intended to be political (in fact, the DARPA politics around funding made me abandon it).
Perhaps my joining this list as a newcomer 7 years back was an unintended effect of letting this page go unmaintained? Then for 7 years, I believed that edu-sig was intended for those wishing to push ahead with the CP4E initiative, even absent more DARPA funding.
But please don't steal my CP4E moniker.
I've patterned my own quirky HP4E after it (decoded elsewhere -- a geometric meaning), but hey, now that I better understand the history, I'll update my narrative accordingly. Here's what I'd say today: """ CP4E as an historical phenomenon was reminiscent of many parallel agendas set forward by other computer gurus (OLPC another example). This particular initiative, proposed by Guido then with CNRI, and briefly funded by DARPA, helped net us the cross-platform Tk-based IDE known as IDLE, currently shipped with every download of CPython and used in classrooms around the world to this day (sometimes to help kids learn math, like in Kirby's classes in Portland). IDLE continues to improve, having become another actively maintained community project by this time. """
FWIW, the no-politics ban was long overdue. The archives show it. And please show me where the edu-sig homepage (which is much more informative than the mailman description) mentions politics.
--Guido
The "no-politics" ban seems somewhat unworkable to me. The notion of "politics" is too vague, has this "we'll know it when we see it" flavor. Will we? Or will some people just get better at disguising political content between the lines (e.g. "I used to like this list but now I think it's trash..." -- very political, as in "playing to public sentiment"). Some writers are simply better than others at turning bans to their advantage (sucking up to the censors sometimes helps). Unmoderated or barely moderated lists (e.g. stripping out the Viagra spam) help us avoid so many thorny issues of censorship associated with sweeping topical bans. Anyway, let's just see how it plays out going forward (assuming the archive remains a community resource and that this ban remains in force). [ I take much of the credit for the edu-sig homepage BTW, though it perhaps still over-reflects my outdated understanding of the purpose of edu-sig (I'm still mired). ] I suggest both the home page and the mailman description get a long overdue face lift (not by me of course -- I've got enough on my plate for the time being and others should be given a chance at bat, would no doubt relish the opportunity). I will not be proposing edu-politics as a list name (why would we want "just politics" for a diet? The point would be to keep looking at the bigger picture, but without losing sight of nuts and bolts Python (if it's not at all Pythonic, it doesn't make sense hosting it within the python.org domain). edu-stratagems has a ring to it. Or just stratagems. I'd still like cp4e-sig, but only if Guido approves of it. Anyone else got a proposal? Kirby
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