I am a CS teacher who teaches a general service course (both majors and non-majors) and in it we have a programming component. Currently, we are teaching BASIC to the students but I _really_ don't like the bad habits that this language promotes and I like the ease of explaining programming concepts in Python to both CS majors and NON-CS majors. However, my problem is not the language but in trying to get a broader acceptance of Python as a language equivalent to BASIC in people's minds. We know that Python is better ('natch :-) but people responsible for transferring the credit to another school often will ask for BASIC specifically. Any ideas how to fix this problem? This problem is much more important than you might realize. If schools won't accept classes that have Python in them, then it doesn't matter how much better Python is than BASIC, the classes cannot be taught. Either that or you end up with boutique classes with nobody in them. Dean P.S. I'm in California if that matters.
However, my problem is not the language but in trying to get a broader acceptance of Python as a language equivalent to BASIC in people's minds. We know that Python is better ('natch :-) but people responsible for transferring the credit to another school often will ask for BASIC specifically. Any ideas how to fix this problem?
In my freshman year intro course to computers and programming at Princeton in the 1970s, we sampled several languages: FORTRAN, PL/1, some assembler, SNOBOL and I forget which others. Mostly punch cards, with the CRT experience being new on the IBM 370. When it came to CRTs and a command line interface, Princeton had APL terminals scattered about, with engineering students using APL on Tektronix CRTs for graphics (I'd sometimes sneak in and use 'em at night). Given how easy it is to sample languages (by downloading them for free), perhaps your best bet is to sneak Python into your course without abandoning BASIC. Surely it's easier to talk up the benefits of "compare and contrast" and "not getting stuck in a rut too early" and "different languages for different tasks" and so forth, especially in an intro course. I'd also argue for throwing a LISPish language into the mix -- something like DrScheme, which already has well-developed teaching materials. I suppose it makes some difference whether your course is a sort of vocational track for people headed into programming right away, or a more theoretical track for computer science pros, in which case exposure to lots of languages is essential. There's no such thing as a CS pro who just knows one language -- only vocational programmers might fit that description.
This problem is much more important than you might realize. If schools won't accept classes that have Python in them, then it doesn't matter how much better Python is than BASIC, the classes cannot be taught. Either that or you end up with boutique classes with nobody in them.
Dean
P.S. I'm in California if that matters.
It would seem extraordinarily closed-minded to say *only* BASIC can be studied in intro courses. I can understand why some exposure to BASIC should be kept, perhaps made mandatory, but I don't understand why a monolingual approach should be enforced early on. Different students will take to different languages and it's best to let them get a sense of the spectrum, the range, rather than ram a single language down their throats. But you probably agree. It's just the dogmatic bureaucrats you have to persuade. Probably your only long term solution is to keep pointing to rising numbers of real world jobs and applications that make use of Python. Kirby PS: I think it's in some ways easier to sneak in Python using in my "math through programming" approach because the focus is the math, aided with whatever tools. As long as they don't think you're teaching programming, you can teach whatever programming you want.
At 02:17 PM 9/29/00 -0700, you wrote:
I am a CS teacher who teaches a general service course (both majors and non-majors) and in it we have a programming component. Currently, we are teaching BASIC to the students but I _really_ don't like the bad habits that this language promotes and I like the ease of explaining programming concepts in Python to both CS majors and NON-CS majors.
However, my problem is not the language but in trying to get a broader acceptance of Python as a language equivalent to BASIC in people's minds. We know that Python is better ('natch :-) but people responsible for transferring the credit to another school often will ask for BASIC specifically. Any ideas how to fix this problem?
Could you get slick and teach "Basic using Python Design" -- spend 3/4 of the semester doing python, then say OK, here's how you do it in Basic (a window per object HOHO). I'm not an academic guy, but just in case that idea will fly, I'm giving it to you. Steve
This problem is much more important than you might realize. If schools won't accept classes that have Python in them, then it doesn't matter how much better Python is than BASIC, the classes cannot be taught. Either that or you end up with boutique classes with nobody in them.
Dean
P.S. I'm in California if that matters.
_______________________________________________ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
From: Steve Litt <slitt@troubleshooters.com>
However, my problem is not the language but in trying to get a broader acceptance of Python as a language equivalent to BASIC in people's minds. We know that Python is better ('natch :-) but people responsible for transferring the credit to another school often will ask for BASIC specifically. Any ideas how to fix this problem?
Could you get slick and teach "Basic using Python Design" -- spend 3/4 of the semester doing python, then say OK, here's how you do it in Basic (a window per object HOHO).
Not a bad idea really. In fact some Python translates quite nicely to VisualBasic. Perhaps another way to do it would be to do some COM programming, assuming you are on Win32. There are so many BASIC examples for ActiveX. Translating these into Python could be fun and useful as long as your students don't get too confused. Or follow the examples in Mark Hammond's book and get Python talking to Basic via COM. This could perhaps open up a more productive and challenging discussion with the students about the real world idea and issues of interfaces, communications, objects, etc. COM is interesting in this respect and very powerful. Python of course lets you play around interactively treating everything as an object. So you could use it as a tool for discussing COM and basic. Maybe do some algorithmic stuff with Excel from python. Get the students first to use Excel to do create some Macros, manually, then examine them, and start to automate it in Python. See how elegant and powerful it can become. The nice thing about Python & Excel is that you have a Command Line Interpreter to try stuff out, but also the full-blooded Excel application is right there to experiment with. Maybe use Python to script Excel and do some calculations on lots of columns. Then move on and see if you even need Excel at all using Python dictionaries, lists, classes by generalizing the same job. Perhaps this would be more acceptable to the powers that don't. Plugging Python into it, demystifies COM by removing it from its MSBASIC trappings to see what it really is. Also opens up the discussion for what MS say they are trying to do with .NET. - Jason
Hi all, Not that it matters on this particular mailing list, but I'm a Linux/Open Source advocate and a harsh critic of Microsoft. This is just in the way of explanation. So I went to "Technology Night" at our childrens' school, and it turned out to be nothing but a Microsoft indoctrination for elementary students. So I offered to put on an age-appropriate demo of Open Source technology at the next technology night. So now I need to put on a dog and pony show. It must be so interesting to kids that they don't get bored or fidgit. I think that calls for some sort of action game. And it must clearly demonstrate that it fills an educational need to the parents. It seems to me that Python + Idle + some of the ideas I've seen expressed on this list would do the trick. Whaddya all think? Kirby -- any ideas? I've crossposted this to my LUG, LEAP-CF, because I anticpate that my fellow LUGsters and myself will be the people who actually put on this show. Thanks Steve Steve Litt Webmaster, Troubleshooters.Com http://www.troubleshooters.com slitt@troubleshooters.com
Hi Steve very happy to pitch in with good ideas but first please can you tell us: - What ages? - What was shown already? [specifically] - How long do you have? - Will it be people gathered around one machine or is there a projector? - When is presentation due? Jason ________________________________________________________________ Jason CUNLIFFE = NOMADICS.(Interactive Art and Technology).Design Director ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Litt <slitt@troubleshooters.com> To: <edu-sig@python.org> Cc: <leaplist@lists.leap-cf.org> Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 12:18 PM Subject: [Edu-sig] Now I went and did it!
Hi all,
Not that it matters on this particular mailing list, but I'm a Linux/Open Source advocate and a harsh critic of Microsoft. This is just in the way of explanation.
So I went to "Technology Night" at our childrens' school, and it turned out to be nothing but a Microsoft indoctrination for elementary students. So I offered to put on an age-appropriate demo of Open Source technology at the next technology night.
So now I need to put on a dog and pony show. It must be so interesting to kids that they don't get bored or fidgit. I think that calls for some sort of action game. And it must clearly demonstrate that it fills an educational need to the parents.
It seems to me that Python + Idle + some of the ideas I've seen expressed on this list would do the trick. Whaddya all think? Kirby -- any ideas?
I've crossposted this to my LUG, LEAP-CF, because I anticpate that my fellow LUGsters and myself will be the people who actually put on this show.
Thanks
Steve
Steve Litt Webmaster, Troubleshooters.Com http://www.troubleshooters.com slitt@troubleshooters.com
_______________________________________________ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
At 01:08 PM 10/4/00 -0400, Jason Cunliffe wrote:
Hi Steve
very happy to pitch in with good ideas but first please can you tell us:
- What ages? 5-10
- What was shown already? [specifically] MS Encarta, with various types of lookup, video, etc, MS Office and Windows ME (but I missed those -- left early to see the presidential debates)
- How long do you have? I'd guess between 15 minutes and 1 hour
- Will it be people gathered around one machine or is there a projector? Projector. The kids all sit on the floor in front, while the parents sit in chairs behind them. I'd imagine there are about 70 kids and 100 parents.
- When is presentation due? No specific time. I simply made the proposal.
Thanks Jason Steve Steve Litt Webmaster, Troubleshooters.Com http://www.troubleshooters.com slitt@troubleshooters.com
Jason ________________________________________________________________ Jason CUNLIFFE = NOMADICS.(Interactive Art and Technology).Design Director
----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Litt <slitt@troubleshooters.com> To: <edu-sig@python.org> Cc: <leaplist@lists.leap-cf.org> Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 12:18 PM Subject: [Edu-sig] Now I went and did it!
Hi all,
Not that it matters on this particular mailing list, but I'm a Linux/Open Source advocate and a harsh critic of Microsoft. This is just in the way of explanation.
So I went to "Technology Night" at our childrens' school, and it turned out to be nothing but a Microsoft indoctrination for elementary students. So I offered to put on an age-appropriate demo of Open Source technology at the next technology night.
So now I need to put on a dog and pony show. It must be so interesting to kids that they don't get bored or fidgit. I think that calls for some sort of action game. And it must clearly demonstrate that it fills an educational need to the parents.
It seems to me that Python + Idle + some of the ideas I've seen expressed on this list would do the trick. Whaddya all think? Kirby -- any ideas?
I've crossposted this to my LUG, LEAP-CF, because I anticpate that my fellow LUGsters and myself will be the people who actually put on this show.
Thanks
Steve
Steve Litt Webmaster, Troubleshooters.Com http://www.troubleshooters.com slitt@troubleshooters.com
_______________________________________________ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
_______________________________________________ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
On Wed, 4 Oct 2000, Steve Litt wrote:
Subject: [LeapList] Re: [Edu-sig] Now I went and did it!
- What ages? 5-10
You know, you might just want to back-track a bit and look into research regarding just how effective it is to have kids at this age working with computers. (No, the answer is NOT obvious.) Personally, at this age, I'd only have my kids play games, just so they wouldn't feel intimidated by it later. Maybe by 10, I'd help them type a report. Computers are a tool for the mind. They do not belong in the hands of those who are still learning how to apply their minds. You don't drive race cars before you learn to walk. Of course, in our current school systems, pushing for real education instead of waving quick-fix techno-behavioural on-size-fits-all solutions is like trying to stop a train by putting your foot on the rail.
- What was shown already? [specifically] MS Encarta, with various types of lookup, video, etc, MS Office and Windows ME (but I missed those -- left early to see the presidential debates)
I would really drive home three alternatives to these 3: Encarta: Like encyclopedias, but smaller and more rapidly obsolete (due to the rate if information churn). Forget it, and teach using the internet as a research tool. It also has various types of lookup, video, etc... Office: For 5-10 year-olds? When mine were little and needed to type reports, Wordpad did everything they need. There are plenty of Open Source word processors that format nice and handle the occasional embedded image (d/l'ed from the internet, of course) that are a lot simpler for a kid to use. Don't even consider spreadsheets, presentation packages or databases. These kids should be adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing. They should be learning to make their cases orally and in writing by developing structured thought and communication skills. The should be learning how to take notes and outline. WinME: Kids don't car what OS they are using. Explain to the teachers and administrators that a closed OS is like a closed school. If you really want kids to learn, you have to let them inside. They will argue that everyone else is using MS operating systems. Explain to them (politely) that their goal should not be to grow a new generation of secretaries and managers, but scientists and engineers. We are seriously behind in technological education, because we teach kids how everyone else does things instead of teaching them how to figure things out for themselves. Windows might be on everyones' desk, but Linux was on the space shuttle. In other words, your target audience is NOT the children, (nor should it be). Kids should not be making the decisions about how they get educated and what they learn. Remember, when they show up for the first day of school, they probably don't know what Windows is any more than they know what Linux is, and what's more, they don't care! Even by 10, they MAY have a computer, and they MAY know it runs Windows but the still probably don't know what Windows is, what it does, and what alternatives exist. Nor should they. Teachers and administrators are another thing. They SHOULD know what goes on in the real world, but they don't. The use of computers in K-12 for administrative work is fairly non-relevant to a teacher's day in class. We need to make them understand that these are just tools. Kids should be made familiar with all different types of tools. (Yes, you CAN read that as "Windows, too!") We also need to make them understand that Windows is (basically) an OS for office workers. Unix and Linux is used by scientists, engineers, computer professionals, architects, graphic designers, and of course, REAL internet applications. So the question becomes, "What would you like your students to grow up to be?"
- How long do you have? I'd guess between 15 minutes and 1 hour
- Will it be people gathered around one machine or is there a projector? Projector. The kids all sit on the floor in front, while the parents sit in chairs behind them. I'd imagine there are about 70 kids and 100 parents.
This presentation should hold off untill the educator's have bought in and Linux is being deployed. It's a pointless excercise to do an OS presentation for kids this age. Parents are only likely to be interested if this is really something their kids will be doing. So step back, and do some research on education in general (which will get you a LOT of respect from educators). Then talk to the teachers and administrators about ways you can help them use inexpensive technology to improve their communications, work-flow, record keeping and, Oh by the way, this stuff works great for students, too. I think that was at least $.20... mwa
On Wed, 4 Oct 2000, Steve Litt wrote:
[an incredible selection of great comments and URLs snipped] mwa and many others from the edu-sig make some great points about the (miserable) state of education... Take a moment or two to dig up a copy of Cliff Stohl's "Silicon Snake Oil"... My kids are 13 (going on thirty) and 5-1/2. At home, both kids use Win95 and Linux. I started each out (@ 18 months) with an ancient TTY terminal and when they learned to spell/type their name, they graduated to the computer (they needed to login).
From there, they progressed thru the typical point-and-click eye candy games and educational fare (the JumpStart series from Knowledge Adventure is highly recommended).
Their school system uses primarily Apple (MACs & newer equipment for the older kids, hand-me down ][e's for the elementary schools). I deliberately didn't rush out to purchase any Apple gear for the house simply because I wanted the kids to get some diversity in their computer skills. I think it was fifth or sixth grade before the teachers started sending computer work home. Even then, there were no problems with common data exchanges between the stuff at home and the MACs at school. However! (and I think Mark Alexander echo'd this earlier) elementary level students shouldn't focus on computers as a medium for education. They need to get the communication skills, the reading, and the mathematics (my daughter can do much more simple math in her head than I can- I relied way too much on pocket calculators in my school daze :) Sure they can USE the computers to become familiar, but it really shouldn't be the primary (or worse- only) tool in the instructors bag... And since the elementary kids are only USING the computer, any brand of hardware or OS or software should be OK. Ideally they should get exposure to many different types. This is where Linux becomes the shining star in the budget crunched educators world. Because Linux can run on such a wide range of low-end hardware, it becomes attractive to recycle the stuff out of the middle and high schools down to the elementary schools. Linux is free, but does have a hidden administrative cost. I've suggested in the past this is really an opportunity for the school administration to create an advanced computing class, where the high school kids can gain real world experience managing the systems for the elementary kids. Best of luck putting your worms back into the can! ;) P.S. When researching your demo programs, don't neglect the older MS-DOS catalog. Much of this great software will run on Linux with dosemu... -- "Open source software - with no walls and fences, who needs Windows and Gates?"
Hi Steve Following on my earlier 12-step which was thinking more of teenagers. After reading your answer to my first questions and others sensible replies here is my 2nd version: A fun 3 step menu for 5-10 years, their parents and teachers: KEYPOINTS #1Don't worry about Python. It won't matter to anyone unless there is a math teacher or some parents who _are_ into programming themselves. #2The real issue is that there is a rich open options of operating systems and the many software tools to use and create on it. It does not really matter what the tools you show are, so much as you can rapidly jump around and show the diversity. Both serious and fun stuff. #3 It should not be a religious issue of the marilyn_monroe vs. godzilla. If there is a religion it must be marilyn_monroe dates godzilla.. in other words focus on cool software which they can try out today on windoze and hey guess what all?.... this stuff works even better over here on Linux [where it came from] #4 openSource = If you want to have your cake and eat, sooner or later you'll have learn to bake it!! #5 All are FREE and extendible. Thus they represent a no-cost entry into an extendible environment which will reward long-term human investment. #6 It is the global trend [see my juicy Korean Linux quote earlier]. All the same tools for Win or Mac now exist for Linux [almost true in almost all categories. In many cases Linux tools are better we know] # 7 Know you audience.. Perhaps start by asking show of hands stuff how many use computers daily, for office, for multimedia, for web for programming.. THE DEMOS 1. MUSIC + GRAPHICS This is your best bet. This stuff is fun and on openSource this can save a lot of money too vs. The others. Plus it offers a migration path up the school chain in all sorts of ways towards increasing sophistication 1.1 GIMP - obvious but how can you go wrong with some great paint software 1.2 SLIDESHOW [no precise suggestion on this one - find the easiest to use] Some kind of software which will allow you just walk nicely through a bunch of text and graphics with no hideous windows GUI stupid crap in the way - just full screen images and black backgrounds. Load it up with some nice graphics and perhaps some supporting text of your own, including at least one image you are going to fool around with in the GIMP. 1.3 KEYKIT- Fabulous MIDI programming environment. Free. Genius. http://nosuch.com/keykit/ You can open up keyKit, set up a few KeyKit screens with some of the tools and let it play using some built in MIDI synth from soundcard or even better hook up a small synth if you can get one. KeyKit has a couple of great tools to get everyone's instant attention. The advantage is at least one child [of any age will want to play with it] For example I suggest: a) the mouse matrix tool. Scoot your mouse around the XY grid and play delirious tumlbing playful riffs on it. irresistible free thinking. b) boom box tool let you set up bass and drum rhythms. But using the brilliant KeyKit 'snarf' function you can cutnpaste whole riffs of other notes and use those in the boom box. c) sequencer tool Play some Bach as midi. open up some custom parameter sliders so you can change tempo, sound patch on the fly. Play with those for couple of minutes. Then select a small section of the Bach and just play that. Show them how you can break it down to simple manageable small kid sized things. Then load in some popular well known midi file which the kids will know - some theme tune of whatever and play that so they get a response. Then wiggle the sliders to make it strange again. very fast or very slow.. This is an entire self-contained programmable environment which allows custom musical interfaces and compositions to be built. You can use this tool from age 5 through 95. You can use it for straight ahead recordin gan playback of elctronix keyboards for music theory, and singing all the way out to most experimental OUT concepts and beautiful sounds structures For an example of such amazing development see GeoMaestro - an inspired and unique visual interface to music & programming http://perso.infonie.fr/hepta/GM/eGM0.html Good for a illustration on printed handout lots more audio goodies on http://www.xdt.com/ar/linux-snd/ 2. MATH AND EXPERIMENTAL SANITY NEW LEARNING COOL SOFTWARE 2.1 Show Kirby's great Python + POV pages.. Just so impressive those patterns the depth of meaning of number. Instantly they speak but there is much more which is hidden to be explored. patterns patterns patterns http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/numeracy0.html etc 2.2 Geometer' Sketch Pad Interactive geometry type applications. What I am thinking of is the things which let you directly play hands on with lines and circles and develop a really intuitive feel for geometry. Sort of like these: http://www.maths.gla.ac.uk/~wws/cabripages/inversive/inversive0.html http://java.wiwi.uni-frankfurt.de:8080/java/owa/jr_qurres?vappletno=3144 [Sorry cant find any more precise references right now] 3. GEOGRAPHY, EARTH AND SPACE 3.1 Some cool atlas tool if it exists suitable for young ones. Unix is still very lacking in the low end for this I think. No matter there is so much cool stuff on the web - John Walker's site alone should be enough to keep any 5-10 year old if some kind teacher one would guide them through it 3.2 http://www.fourmilab.ch/earthview/satellite.html 3.3 http://www.fourmilab.ch/cgi-bin/uncgi/Earth/action?opt=-p 3.4 http://www.fourmilab.ch/cgi-bin/uncgi/Earth/action?opt=-m&img=Moon.evif 3.5 http://www.fourmilab.ch/terranova/terranova.html 3.6 http://www.fourmilab.ch/yoursky/ 3.7 http://www.fourmilab.ch/solar/solar.html hth+ enjoy!! - Jason
So now I need to put on a dog and pony show. It must be so interesting to kids that they don't get bored or fidgit. I think that calls for some sort of action game. And it must clearly demonstrate that it fills an educational need to the parents.
It seems to me that Python + Idle + some of the ideas I've seen expressed on this list would do the trick. Whaddya all think? Kirby -- any ideas?
<shamelessplug> If you haven't already, why don't you take a look at the 'visual' module? (part of VPython) http://cil.andrew.cmu.edu/projects/visual I didn't design it for writing action games, but it can do the kind of 3D stuff Kirby has been doing with Povray, and do it in real-time so that you can rotate around an animation, interact with it, etc. For some reason there aren't any great screenshots online, but please download it and play with the demos. I think it will help you put something both flashy and educational together. </shamelessplug> Also, are there any particular subjects that you want to get involved? i.e. is the objective to teach about computers, or to teach arithmetic, or is *any* application of technology in the classroom okay? Dave
On Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 02:50:36PM -0400, David Scherer wrote:
If you haven't already, why don't you take a look at the 'visual' module? (part of VPython)
I'd like to try this, but I'm concerned about how well it will coexist with the other Python installations on my Windows NT 4 machine. I've got: Python 1.6, for general Python use. Python ? as installed as a component of Alice 99. Python 1.5.? as installed as a component of Zope 2.2.2. Will VisualPython work in that environment without interfering with those other Python instances? I'm not enthused about installing Yet Another Python and dealing with its quirks. Do you have any plans to distribute Visual Python as an extension to Python 1.6 or 2.0, rather than as a completely separate product? -- Fred Yankowski fred@OntoSys.com tel: +1.630.879.1312 Principal Consultant www.OntoSys.com fax: +1.630.879.1370 OntoSys, Inc 38W242 Deerpath Rd, Batavia, IL 60510, USA
I'd like to try this, but I'm concerned about how well it will coexist with the other Python installations on my Windows NT 4 machine. I've got:
Python 1.6, for general Python use. Python ? as installed as a component of Alice 99. Python 1.5.? as installed as a component of Zope 2.2.2.
Will VisualPython work in that environment without interfering with those other Python instances?
I'm not enthused about installing Yet Another Python and dealing with its quirks. Do you have any plans to distribute Visual Python as an extension to Python 1.6 or 2.0, rather than as a completely separate product?
The 'visual' module is available separately as a ZIP from the download page (http://cil.andrew.cmu.edu/projects/visual/download.html). You need to put in on the python path of the Python you intend to use it with, you will need Numerical Python (http://numpy.sourceforge.net/) as well, and if you want to use an IDE you will need the upgraded IDLE (http://sourceforge.net/projects/idlefork). The VPython installer is a convenience for people who don't already have N versions of Python installed (for example, try installing all of those components manually on 30 machines in a computer lab :). It reduces the frequency of installation problems, and also makes it much easier for us to help people with problems, since they have a homogenous setup. Dave
At 02:50 PM 10/4/00 -0400, David Scherer wrote:
So now I need to put on a dog and pony show. It must be so interesting to kids that they don't get bored or fidgit. I think that calls for some sort of action game. And it must clearly demonstrate that it fills an educational need to the parents.
It seems to me that Python + Idle + some of the ideas I've seen expressed on this list would do the trick. Whaddya all think? Kirby -- any ideas?
<shamelessplug>
If you haven't already, why don't you take a look at the 'visual' module? (part of VPython)
http://cil.andrew.cmu.edu/projects/visual
I didn't design it for writing action games, but it can do the kind of 3D stuff Kirby has been doing with Povray, and do it in real-time so that you can rotate around an animation, interact with it, etc. For some reason there aren't any great screenshots online, but please download it and play with the demos.
I think it will help you put something both flashy and educational together.
</shamelessplug>
vPython looks like a great tool for at least part of the job, assuming it runs under Linux (I couldn't tell from the website). I'd need to have something kewl from a kid point of view, but educational from a parent point of view.
Also, are there any particular subjects that you want to get involved? i.e. is the objective to teach about computers, or to teach arithmetic, or is *any* application of technology in the classroom okay?
Dave
The objective is to present an alternative to the Microsoft propaganda. That's all. Once the alternative has been presented, I'll get back with edu-sig to create something that *actually facilitates child learning*. But this first one is just propaganda, just like Microsoft's dog and pony show. Thanks STeve Steve Litt Webmaster, Troubleshooters.Com http://www.troubleshooters.com slitt@troubleshooters.com
vPython looks like a great tool for at least part of the job, assuming it runs under Linux (I couldn't tell from the website). I'd need to have something kewl from a kid point of view, but educational from a parent point of view.
It does run under Linux, although I don't maintain the linux version. See http://cil.andrew.cmu.edu/projects/visual/download.html#linux. Let us know if you need any help with visual - I'm rather busy at the moment, but this seems like a good cause so I'll do what I can.
But this first one is just propaganda, just like Microsoft's dog and pony show.
Even in propaganda, you might mention that a key advantage of open source, python, visual, etc. is that students and teachers can actually get involved in content creation, rather than just absorbing the content bottled by %(company)s. Dave
At 05:08 PM 10/4/00 -0400, David Scherer wrote:
Even in propaganda, you might mention that a key advantage of open source, python, visual, etc. is that students and teachers can actually get involved in content creation, rather than just absorbing the content bottled by %(company)s.
Dave
Good point! Steve
Hi Steve hmm.. thinking about menus and recipes for your pony show... Here is one possible Pythonic 12-step program: 1. BASIC TOOLS Start with IDLE or PythonWin [I am not sure what you show them or do with it..] 2. MATH SANITY AND RESPECT Open a web browser and show some of Kirby's great WEB pages connecting Python to POVray [hint capture a few pages with his permission and store locally as html fixing critical links if needed] This will get instant respect.. [be prepared to compare price/access to Mathematica = yes you can get edu license but still expensive and wont run at home] 3. WEB But wait we are not connected to the internet..Show that these are not just html files, that you are actually accessing a free web server running locally == ZOPE 4. PORTABILITY Don't get stuck into Zope but [mention FREE opensource object-oriented..] maybe mention ZODB import export web site across machines and platforms..[maybe not relevant but for a school I think it makes a lot of sense] So who's using it ? CBS ==> http://www.cbsnewyork.com/main/home/index After the Zope ZODB import export idea, compare and stress portability of Python modules.. 5. PYTHON is used all over and for good things Mention and show that most of Zope is written in ..tadah!.. Python. Python external methods.. 6. WHAT you can make with it and tools you can learn with Show them Alice quickly 7. way cool APPLICATIONS which your kids could like in school and after school Show them Blender 2.x [The game version] Grab some slick 3D game style graphics done in Blender of the web so they understand this is serious FREE software [but not open sourced yet -go ask Ton]. Blender super interface is written in Python I think.. can anyone confirm this.. Anyway show some Python scripting for Blender. If no time for getting into actual demos some good illustrated tutorials in HMTL you can pull down. The scripting examples are nice - very clean and read much like Kirby's POV stuff except they use the interactivity which Blender 2 offers. [I think Caligari Truespace also uses Python for scripting] 8. SUPPORT Flash some of the Python docs at them - clean sane respectable manuals and tutorials Flash some comp.lang.python subject listings tree to give a flavor of healthy community solving problems together support PythonDailyURLs could be another great sample 9. CONTRIBUTIONS http://www.vex.net/parnassus/ 10. USERS Go over some of the luminaries who have used Python for serious scientific work. LLNL, Nasa, Swedish Meteological Institute, etc. http://www.python.org/psa/Users.html [this may need updating not sure] 11. OPEN SOURCE : good enough for 1+billion in Asia Move over to more general openSource arguments. Korean and Chinese governments have now opted for L:inux, French to follow I believe. See the juicy excerpt from an article I am writing at the moment about Korea, Multimedia and the Internet: quote below 12. ATTITUDE STRATEGY Extract some lessons from Eric Raymond's speech and apply _nicely_to your audience. http://www.technetcast.com/tnc_play_stream.html?stream_id=318 There is a very entertaining mp3 you can download and listen to.. funny, over-the-top, right-on, irreverent and shrewd with a dose of teen-like petulance and revenge lust into the mix.. He scores with some very solid points though. recommended Add salt, spice and decorum according to your taste (also peek at this article http://www.advogato.org/article/167.html) <use for items #11 and #12 above> ....................................................... NEW GOVERNMENT & LINUX The South Korean government's goal is that Korea should become the #2 world best computer internet society after the USA. They have several way they hope to achieve this. Key is the direct investment in technical infrastructure combined with a balanced investment in human resources. The technical infrastructure includes DSL everywhere, and broad policy adoption Linux operating system. The human resources plan involves access to hardware, software, communications with training and support. [As reported in newspaper.] Ambyiong YOK, Korean government communications minister, announced new Linux policy on the 14-Sept at 'Global Linux Year 2000' expo in Seoul. The show is being held at the Seoul KOEX exhibition center, and is supported by the government. "Today, in software departments, freedom and openness and sharing. This is our philosophy and spirit. We are going to practice this mentality. Linux is one of the really important parts. Linux is the epicenter of change in the communications world. Korean government is going to be managed by internet system. We are going to support and develop in cyberspace computing infra(structure). This event, 'Global Linux Year 2000' is going to be a great terminal and investment bridge for Korean Linux companies and foreign companies. Of course, I hope communications, and broadcast, and information technologies - this all will be harmonized based on openSource software. This is going to be the starting point for openness and sharing." Recognizing the importance of next generation systems, the Korean government's communications department has also started an Internet PC upgrade project. Old PC's will be recycled and sold to China, or donated to North Korea whose computer communications infra-structure is way behind South Korean at present ....................................................... hope this helps. - Jason ________________________________________________________________ Jason CUNLIFFE = NOMADICS.(Interactive Art and Technology).Design Director ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Litt <slitt@troubleshooters.com> To: <edu-sig@python.org> Cc: <leaplist@lists.leap-cf.org> Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 12:18 PM Subject: [Edu-sig] Now I went and did it!
Hi all,
Not that it matters on this particular mailing list, but I'm a Linux/Open Source advocate and a harsh critic of Microsoft. This is just in the way of explanation.
So I went to "Technology Night" at our childrens' school, and it turned out to be nothing but a Microsoft indoctrination for elementary students. So I offered to put on an age-appropriate demo of Open Source technology at the next technology night.
So now I need to put on a dog and pony show. It must be so interesting to kids that they don't get bored or fidgit. I think that calls for some sort of action game. And it must clearly demonstrate that it fills an educational need to the parents.
It seems to me that Python + Idle + some of the ideas I've seen expressed on this list would do the trick. Whaddya all think? Kirby -- any ideas?
My recommendation is you keep the demo short and sweet and put some attention into handouts which parents and/or kids can take home and mull over at their leisure. You could talk about what any good teching enviroment should include: real time evaluation (a responsive command line with no compile-link step). Mention that because Python is free, many will be able to use it at home at no cost. Then point to the web and show that an education-oriented culture is growing up around Python. If you won't have internet during the demo, print a page or three for inclusion in your handout. Kirby
On Wed, 4 Oct 2000, Steve Litt wrote:
So now I need to put on a dog and pony show. It must be so interesting to kids that they don't get bored or fidgit. I think that calls for some sort of action game. And it must clearly demonstrate that it fills an educational need to the parents.
Concentrate more on the latter than on the former. Kids will wiggle and squirm and act bored no matter what: you're an adult, and thus (by definition) boring. Do your best to make engage them, but don't let that overshadow your real mission.
It seems to me that Python + Idle + some of the ideas I've seen expressed on this list would do the trick. Whaddya all think? Kirby -- any ideas?
Sounds like a good idea. However, be sure to keep it simple -- part of Python's beauty (and the beauty of most Open Source apps) is its simplicity. Dustin --------------------------------------------------------------------- | Dustin Mitchell )O( | ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Dean Nevins wrote: ....
but people responsible for transferring the credit to another school often will ask for BASIC specifically. Any ideas how to fix this problem?
This problem is much more important than you might realize. If schools won't accept classes that have Python in them, then it doesn't matter how much better Python is than BASIC, the classes cannot be taught. Either that or you end up with boutique classes with nobody in them.
BASIC is a rather variable beast. Some BASICs I have seen are rather similar to the non OO parts of Python. Maybe we just need a subset of Python called py-PASIC, BASIC-py or something like that. Maybe it´s gotta have line-numbers?? ;-) Maybe creative spelling can do... - BASIC programming (puts upp some ridiculous restrictions) - Basic programming (could be taught in ANY language, that isn´t too difficult) ;-) Maybe Python just needs some marketing. What if somebody shrink-wrapped Python on a CD. Put it in a HUGE box with some programming examples and a good book? Sell it for $150 or something like that. ;-) If somebody is stupid enough to buy, recycle the money to advertisments and Python development... Urban -- Microsoft will stop making things that suck when they start making vacuum cleaners.
participants (10)
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Brian Coyle -
David Scherer -
Dean Nevins -
Dustin Mitchell -
Fred Yankowski -
Jason Cunliffe -
Kirby Urner -
Mark W. Alexander -
Steve Litt -
Urban Anjar