
Greetings Aside from the usual internicine bickerings common to most mailing lists, could someone on this list please take the trouble to answer a question that I have asked previously and that I saw someone else raise recently: what is the probable future of the CP4E project, and have any alternatives to it been considered/discussed? How does Art's PyGeo project fit into the Edu-SIG framework? Is there anything that interested parties could do to assist in carrying the project forward in some way (aside from donating big bucks to the project - sorry). Thanks for your time Andrew

On Thursday 23 January 2003 01:38 pm, ahimsa wrote:
Greetings Aside from the usual internicine bickerings common to most mailing lists, could someone on this list please take the trouble to answer a question that I have asked previously and that I saw someone else raise recently: what is the probable future of the CP4E project, and have any alternatives to it been considered/discussed? How does Art's PyGeo project fit into the Edu-SIG framework? Is there anything that interested parties could do to assist in carrying the project forward in some way (aside from donating big bucks to the project - sorry).
My understanding is that the official CP4E effort has been abandoned, for now, due to insufficient funding. This list remains, and several individuals keep the dream alive. PyGeo is one man's admirable attempt to bring 3-d geometric manipulations to the masses (I hope that's an accurate description). Others here have their pet projects. I like to think that my PyCrust project helps make Python that much more approachable to novices. I think interested parties should pursue their interests and lobby for support in the best tradition of Open Source. Or lend a hand to existing projects. There's plenty that can be done. What are your interests? -- Patrick K. O'Brien Orbtech http://www.orbtech.com/web/pobrien ----------------------------------------------- "Your source for Python programming expertise." -----------------------------------------------

On Thu, Jan 23, 2003 at 02:16:43PM -0600, Patrick K. O'Brien wrote:
My understanding is that the official CP4E effort has been abandoned, for now, due to insufficient funding. This list remains, and several individuals keep the dream alive. PyGeo is one man's admirable attempt to bring 3-d geometric manipulations to the masses (I hope that's an accurate description). Others here have their pet projects. I like to think that my PyCrust project helps make Python that much more approachable to novices.
Thanks for your explanation. Where can I find PyCrust? It would be very insteresting to put a link to it, together with links to PyGeo, Kirby's pages --and others that I must not be aware since I new to this list-- in a single page. Is there room for that in the edu SIG pages at python.org? I'd be willing to help with its maintenance and find a place to host it if necessary. Regards, Jaime

On Thursday 23 January 2003 02:40 pm, Jaime E . Villate wrote:
Where can I find PyCrust?
It ships with wxPython. Or you can get the latest development version from the CVS repository on SourceForge. wxPython: http://www.wxpython.org/ PyCrust: http://sourceforge.net/projects/pycrust/ -- Patrick K. O'Brien Orbtech http://www.orbtech.com/web/pobrien ----------------------------------------------- "Your source for Python programming expertise." -----------------------------------------------

On Thu, 2003-01-23 at 20:16, Patrick K. O'Brien wrote:
My understanding is that the official CP4E effort has been abandoned, for now, due to insufficient funding. This list remains, and several individuals keep the dream alive. PyGeo is one man's admirable attempt to bring 3-d geometric manipulations to the masses (I hope that's an accurate description). Others here have their pet projects. I like to think that my PyCrust project helps make Python that much more approachable to novices.
I think interested parties should pursue their interests and lobby for support in the best tradition of Open Source. Or lend a hand to existing projects. There's plenty that can be done. What are your interests?
Hello Patrick Thanks for getting back to me about my query. It was my impression from sifting through the documentation that the CP4E project was dormant due to funding issues, which is a real shame. I would certainly advocate for it to be extended here in the UK, and using OSS and Python would be a pretty low-cost way of doing so. Unfortunately, I have neither the skill nor experience with which to carry that forward here coming from a social science background and with Python being my first language and being a novice at that to boot!! It is probably a little too early in my learning arc for me to get involved in projects, although I am quite happy to discuss different roles that I could do in existing projects if some project team is looking for some assistance (e.g. documentation or advocacy or a tester for the novice-ease of use factor?). It has been of interest to me that in various readings that I have started over the last few months, there have been several references from different sources about how computer programming is an extension of the cognitive psychology of problem solving. I would extend this and suggest that comp programming is similar to, or a branch of, epistemology: it concerns the construction and negotiation of problem frames and solutions to those problems, and really underscores the processes by which we organise the world, its data, and - to top it off - how we organise our thinking processes (analysis, hypothesis, antithesis, synthesis - the usual Aristotlean process). From this perspective, I think that teaching school kids how to program is not only great vis-a-vis the development of computer/digital savvy (as was suggested in the EDU_SIG docs), but also a significant step forward into advancing structured cognitive training for kids (and adults too) to assist them in the analysis of problems, the proposition and testing of solutions and a meta-analytic perspective in terms of the construction, relevance, and flow of data/cognitive constructs: computer science meets George Kelly in education. Anyway, I ramble ... To close this off, I guess that I'll sit back and lurk for a while and keep hacking away at learning both Python and Linux, take courses where I can (anyone teaching Python in SE London?) and read, read, read. BTW, Patrick - I surfed over to the sourceforge site to check out PyCrust (lol!!) and apprantly they are no longer carrying the files and didn't have a forward link that I could see. Can you give me an alternate link to check it out please. All the best Andrew -- ahimsa <ahimsa@onetel.net.uk>

At 08:49 PM 1/23/2003 +0000, ahimsa wrote:
On Thu, 2003-01-23 at 20:16, Patrick K. O'Brien wrote:
My understanding is that the official CP4E effort has been abandoned, for now, due to insufficient funding. This list remains, and several individuals keep the dream alive. PyGeo is one man's admirable attempt to bring 3-d geometric manipulations to the masses (I hope that's an accurate description). Others here have their pet projects. I like to think that my PyCrust project helps make Python that much more approachable to novices.
I think interested parties should pursue their interests and lobby for support in the best tradition of Open Source. Or lend a hand to existing projects. There's plenty that can be done. What are your interests?
Hello Patrick Thanks for getting back to me about my query. It was my impression from sifting through the documentation that the CP4E project was dormant due to funding issues, which is a real shame. I would certainly advocate for it to be extended here in the UK, and using OSS and Python would be a pretty low-cost way of doing so.
People have taken the broad mission of CP4E (computer programming for everyone) and run with it in various directions. One of the most obvious directions is into the schools. And there you get a fork in the road, with most heading towards the computer science curriculum, but others of us exploring the role of programming (and other modes of computer use) in other parts of the curriculum as well e.g. in math class (there's a tradition here too of course, which precedes Python -- Seymour Papert's Logo initiative for example). Also, under the broad heading of "school", there's this question of levels or target audience -- are we talking college, high school, earlier? or maybe adult education? All of the above no doubt. But each individual will have their bias/strength. What I learned about from Jeff Elkner's posts and web pages over the years (he introduced Python to high schoolers at his school -- also Linux based), is the importance of a text, at least something on-line that's printable, if not a bound text book. He uses 'How to Think Like a Computer Scientist', which he adapted from the original to work with Python. This work is on-line. I had recent discussions with a teacher casting about for a language to use in a computer intro course (high school level). He was drawn to Scheme, largely on the strength of this resource: http://www.htdp.org/ (How to Design Programs), which is indeed the kind of thing a teacher looks for when designing a course. He had every right to be excited about it. I told this teacher that I thought highly of Scheme (which I do -- it's always on my list as a candidate intro language) and its educational materials, but that it's also my view that an intro course (especially an intro course) should look at (at least) two languages, in part because it's in comparing and contrasting them that some of the commonalities leap to the fore -- helping to bring home some of the more abstract concepts (flow of control, named functions, parameters, data structures ...). Beginners will better appreciate the world they're entering if they get exposure to some of the variety that's out there (nothing like a couple hours with J to blow one's mind re the stuff people find useful). I recommended Python as a good candidate for a second language, in part because, unlike Scheme, it really makes the class/object model accessible right at the outset (with the everything-is-an-object paradigm -- with users rolling new types of their own). Although maybe not precisely CP4E's official intent, I look at "computer programming for everyone" as meaning more than everyone learning Python. Python is a good way to get *access* to programming, but then you find yourself learning all kinds of little languages, from Lego Mindstorms to some JavaScript to your calculator, to programming your VCR. And this is actually in harmony with Python's goals as a language -- it's a "glue language" (i.e. "works well with others") and also an "API language" (often used to bind an application's functionality to some syntax scriptable "from the outside"). I emphasize the above because I think it's possible for CP4Eers (people who've taken on this mission) to be pro Python without being tiresomely negatory towards all other languages, thereby falling into one of those deep "language war" wells which dot the internet landscape like so many vortices from hell (loud sucking sounds). It's not about Python OR Scheme or Python OR C# or Python OR Java. It's about Python AND _____ (fill in the blank, with as many languages as you wish). That being said, it makes sense to play up Python's strengths. No need to be shy. Lots of CS teachers are indeed moving to Python.
It has been of interest to me that in various readings that I have started over the last few months, there have been several references from different sources about how computer programming is an extension of the cognitive psychology of problem solving. I would extend this and suggest that comp programming is similar to, or a branch of, epistemology: it concerns the construction and negotiation of problem frames and solutions to those problems, and really underscores the processes by which we organise the world, its data, and - to top it off - how we organise our thinking processes (analysis, hypothesis, antithesis, synthesis - the usual Aristotlean process). From this
There's a question here as to whether programming mirrors our thought process or whether, after we program for awhile, our thought process starts to take on some features of programming. Certainly it's a great source of metaphors. The books usually say "objects" (in the programmed sense) are metaphors for objects in the real world i.e. the problem space is modeled by the solution space in terms of objects. But it works the other way too: getting used to thinking of composition and inheritance affects the way you see the real world (suddenly, that cell phone "really is" a subclass of the more generic telephone class, and so on). Good thing my dog here overrides some of those wolf methods, with more domesticated versions.
perspective, I think that teaching school kids how to program is not only great vis-a-vis the development of computer/digital savvy (as was suggested in the EDU_SIG docs), but also a significant step forward into advancing structured cognitive training for kids (and adults too) to assist them in the analysis of problems, the proposition and testing of solutions and a meta-analytic perspective in terms of the construction, relevance, and flow of data/cognitive constructs: computer science meets George Kelly in education.
Shouldn't programming be taught hand-in-hand with mathematics, which is already so vested in "algorithms"?
Anyway, I ramble ... To close this off, I guess that I'll sit back and lurk for a while and keep hacking away at learning both Python and Linux, take courses where I can (anyone teaching Python in SE London?) and read, read, read. BTW, Patrick - I surfed over to the sourceforge site to check out PyCrust (lol!!) and apprantly they are no longer carrying the files and didn't have a forward link that I could see. Can you give me an alternate link to check it out please. All the best Andrew
PyCrust is cool. I've used it with pleasure. I should find the latest version and play with it some more. Kirby

On Thursday 23 January 2003 02:49 pm, ahimsa wrote:
BTW, Patrick - I surfed over to the sourceforge site to check out PyCrust (lol!!) and apprantly they are no longer carrying the files and didn't have a forward link that I could see. Can you give me an alternate link to check it out please.
Here is the description I have on the main SourceForge page: "PyCrust is an interactive Python shell written in Python using wxPython. The latest stable version ships with wxPython (www.wxpython.org). The latest development version can be checked out of CVS. Packaged file releases are no longer available here." Is that not clear? -- Patrick K. O'Brien Orbtech http://www.orbtech.com/web/pobrien ----------------------------------------------- "Your source for Python programming expertise." -----------------------------------------------
participants (4)
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ahimsa
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Jaime E . Villate
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Kirby Urner
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Patrick K. O'Brien