On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 1:25 AM, Laura Creighton<lac@openend.se> wrote:

I no longer think that the problem is that the '=' symbol is overloaded. I now believe that the problem is that when we, as teachers teach Python, we read a = b as 'a equals b'

Yeah, the word "overloaded" is itself overloaded in that it contains a bias, as we often suppose overloading is a bad thing, like an overloaded bus on a mountain road in Peru, whereas this might just be the standard rural bus, being used efficiently, and it only *looks* overloaded to the tourists. With the doctrine of namespaces already in place ("philosophy for children" thread), it's easier to say: "we have these bones or ivories or mahjong chips that we might recycle endlessly in any number of games and no, the little guy in chess (pawn) is not the same as the little guy in Monopoly (hat), but you could use the pieces interchangeably in a pinch". Likewise, a $ in Perl is unlike a $ in $1.99 and a ** in Python is rather like a ^ in BASIC. Look in the J dictionary (jsoftware.com) and all these familiar symbols are "repurposed" once again. Do the Great Lamba people to the north long to use an actual Greek lambda in native LISP in place of any spelling-it-out in ASCII, now that we have Unicode? I have no idea. You can call it "overloading" but why not just call it "recycling" i.e. taking symbols we've already grown accustomed to seeing, know how to write, and having them mean something different in different language games. "What a concept!" (sarcastic Monty Python voice, annoying laugh track). Being able to do this would imply that humans themselves are highly adaptable around how they use symbols and quickly learn new rules even where the idea of a "ball" is itself used over and over and over.... I agree this is the implication. Humans come into the world highly auto-reprogrammable, often take delight in so doing. Python comes with this OO mythos (mythology). In some "focus groups" (imagine a teacher prep session) we might start with Greek goddesses and gods as primary types, examining their attributes, reinforcing some humanities stuff we'd like 'em to know anyway. Like, I've been suspicious of this Apollo character lately, over what he supposedly did to some Python, take comfort in having Athena appreciate a wisdom Apollo may not get. But hey, not everyone wants to cogitate in those terms, not saying the Greek stuff (ala Disney's 'Hercules') is everyone's cup of tea. However, using Python in the humanities, like in theater, is looking promising. Given some high schools will send us grads already so-equipped, as literature professors, we'll be able to dive in with gusto, talking about "polymorphism" without starting from scratch. Dr. Hugh Kenner was a trailblazer in this regard (Joyce scholar, Bucky biographer, wrote a column for BYTE).

and if we forbid that language usage of the word equals, and always said 'a is bound to b'

Or 'a tags what b tags' or... many synonymous expressions, which if you hear a natural language teacher teach, you'll note is a common technique, repeating the same thing using slightly different analogies or characterizations each time, building up the "synonym base". Humans rely on association and mnemonic short cuts e.g. I use "gnu math" to help fuse the idea of running FOSS on commodity hardware in algebra class (like "of course!").

instead, then, in students who are learning their first programming language and don't come with C baggage, the problem will not arise, in much the same way that using * for multiplication does not cause a problem.

Imagine you're an algebra teacher, first day of class, and these 8 students (pretty small class -- that's why this is considered an elite school) taking their seats already know Python. You're not there to teach them Python but to leverage that knowledge in service of transmitting mathematical concepts, in algebra, and in algebra applied to geometry (i.e. we're not ignoring the graphical, just because it's an algebra class, gotta do that group theory with polyhedra stuff, play some fun computer games around that).

So far this has worked, by my experiment has only been performed with 6 students so far -- hardly a large enough experiemental set.  And the experiment is flawed because it is still quite difficult for me to stop saying 'equals', so I still use the forbidden words every so often. Telling the sudents they can point and make faces at me every time I slip up does wonders for improving me.

Laura

I have all these meetings with teachers around Portland then package it up for export to gnu math teacher circles in the Philippines and places. Because OCN binds its Pythonic Math to a lot of niche market geometric content, mostly using VPython, I'm imagining my teacher base having assorted interests in common, which is borne out by much of the feedback. I transplanted that little fragment of 3.x re Bell Curve to my gnu math distribution vehicle, an archive at Drexel, knowing the teachers pawing through there are likely already Python literate, aren't especially interested in any evangelism for the language ("that's for other people not us"): http://mathforum.org/kb/thread.jspa?threadID=1942369&tstart=0 OK, time for my first meeting of the day... I have this "neolithic math" component in our place based curriculum. We keep going back to this "cave man" setting, but lo and behold their inner circle know quite a bit about world geography and navigation, per recent scholarship (anyway Sumerians were "cave men" and calling it "neolithic" is maybe more marketing than literal -- it's not "prehistoric", not literally). Sometimes we meet in Old Town, that part of Portland consider most Chinese in character. An important aspect of our subculture out here is our Pacific Rim identity, e.g. the Naito family, other Japanese heritage. Seattle is a lot the same way. So this business about working with Filipinos is hardly a new development, was doing it with AFSC (a nonprofit) plus grew up there (high school years). The fact that the RP, like the RSA, is highly anglophone (English-speaking) makes these business relationships all that much easier to form. I got both my XOs from a Chinese family I've known since International School days. Anyway, just filling ya'll in on some local geography, not sure how many on this list have actually been to Portland ever, though I know Laura, you have. Kirby

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