I really liked what Dave Scherer said about computing for everybody, which is the flavor of CP4E that interests me. I have nothing against improving CS education, it's just not all there is in the world, and apparently there's no shortage of people interested in working on that. The CP4E issue goes beyond issues of teaching programming and computer science. One of Dave's examples was "if educators could write educational software..." In the history of educational software at the college level, many theorists claimed that the ideal development model was for faculty to feed pedagogical ideas to programmers to implement. This was supposed to provide the efficiency and quality of the industrial production line, with useful division of labor. But mostly it led to mediocre materials, produced at very high cost (due to the inefficiencies of communication between educators who didn't understand the medium and programmers who didn't understand education). Where possible, it is much better for the people most concerned to be able to do the programming themselves, with the programmers providing the tools to make that feasible. Years ago the theorists pooh-poohed having faculty themselves write educational software with the sarcastic analogy, "You obviously wouldn't want to waste a professor's time on typesetting a textbook." This sarcasm was tool-conditioned: now the tools permit professors to typeset their own textbooks. It's a lot of work, but having total control of the production process is terrific and can lead to higher quality. (Actually, it used to be a lot of work anyway dealing with editors and illustrators and typewritten drafts and secretaries and...) Bruce Sherwood