re: Slighly OT: O'Reilly article [other resources for newbies?]

Everybody, please review that page -- are there any missing resources? Beginners books that I should list?
Hi Guido, Would it be good to put Useless Python on the Newbies page too? http://uselesspython.com

Would it be good to put Useless Python on the Newbies page too?
Sorry, it doesn't really strike me as a strong newbie resource. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

Would it be good to put Useless Python on the Newbies page too?
Sorry, it doesn't really strike me as a strong newbie resource.
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
Since it has come up.... Would it be a strong newbie resource if improved in certain ways? Or is it just not a great idea? Useless Python has received a few hundred "thanks for existing" email messages from newbies, despite what I consider to be grossly-inadequate management on my own part. This is the reason the site remains in place so far. Since the site is an out-of-pocket expense stemming from my love of the language, I would appreciate constructive advice. thanks, Rob Andrews Useless Python

Would it be good to put Useless Python on the Newbies page too?
Sorry, it doesn't really strike me as a strong newbie resource.
Since it has come up....
Would it be a strong newbie resource if improved in certain ways? Or is it just not a great idea?
Useless Python has received a few hundred "thanks for existing" email messages from newbies, despite what I consider to be grossly-inadequate management on my own part. This is the reason the site remains in place so far.
Since the site is an out-of-pocket expense stemming from my love of the language, I would appreciate constructive advice.
I think the idea is great, but the presentation is a bit offputting. I realize that that may be part of the gimmick of the site -- but still... E.g. What's with the 16 numbered lists? How am I supposed to navigate my way around there? Just click random links until something useful pops up? Etc. Maybe you can make the home page a bit more useful for first-time visitors. PS if I don't respond further, it's because I'm about to disappear for a week. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

Guido
Sorry, it doesn't really strike me as a strong newbie resource.
I am surprised by that. What kind of newbie, is the *key* question to ask? I would imagine uselesspython is very welcome site, especially the tutorials page which I proposed earlier. The informal, irreverent tone and evident self-deprecating sense of humor throughtout will turn off some, but surely attract others. There is nothing to intimidate here. The personal tone of labor of love, and slightly wacky mood is great. The real message is simple and important: "Hey you too can program Python and its fun!" Pefect for some newbies imho. Rob
Useless Python has received a few hundred "thanks for existing" email messages from newbies, despite what I consider to be grossly-inadequate management on my own part. This is the reason the site remains in place so far.
Rob, please can you characterize your readers for us: What level, age, response ? What's most popular, what sort of questions ?
Since the site is an out-of-pocket expense stemming from my love of the language, I would appreciate constructive advice.
Thanks, and please do keep it up. and since you asked the conventional designer in me says Navigation 1: A direct short site intro and clear table of contents might be a good idea. Since some pages are longish, repeat navbar at the bottom discretely. Make the "Useless Python" logotype a home page button. Navigation 2: The un-identified 16 numbered source page links at the top could be improved. Any kind of table of contents, tabbed navbar, simple row of names right under the main menu or blog-style down the left margin in small list. Also once one has clicked it should be clear which page of the 16 one is one. Likewise which have already been visited. This can be done using a couple of lines of simple CSS in an external linked file so you can quickly tweak the results to your satisfaction. Navigation 3: Rollover alternate graphics for your main menu would them clearly buttons not just text. [yeah its eye candy, but it helps] Master Index: A simple large table page with links to everything on the site, and one-line description would be good. At-a-glance what's here. Yeah all boring stuff I know. ./Jason

Gentlemen, I respectfully disagree. I am a relative newbie and I find that with the exceptions of tutorials, I spend more time at Useless Python than anywhere else. It gives me great challenges and examples that help me to practice writing code without being discouraged. I find it highly helpful and Rob, I thank you for your efforts. Please keep it up. Dave Craig ----- Original Message ----- From: "Guido van Rossum" <guido@python.org> To: "Rob" <rob@uselesspython.com> Cc: "Danny Yoo" <dyoo@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu>; <edu-sig@python.org> Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 2:07 PM Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] re: Slighly OT: O'Reilly article [other resources for newbies?]
Would it be good to put Useless Python on the Newbies page too?
Sorry, it doesn't really strike me as a strong newbie resource.
Since it has come up....
Would it be a strong newbie resource if improved in certain ways? Or is it just not a great idea?
Useless Python has received a few hundred "thanks for existing" email messages from newbies, despite what I consider to be grossly-inadequate management on my own part. This is the reason the site remains in place so far.
Since the site is an out-of-pocket expense stemming from my love of the language, I would appreciate constructive advice.
I think the idea is great, but the presentation is a bit offputting. I realize that that may be part of the gimmick of the site -- but still... E.g. What's with the 16 numbered lists? How am I supposed to navigate my way around there? Just click random links until something useful pops up? Etc. Maybe you can make the home page a bit more useful for first-time visitors.
PS if I don't respond further, it's because I'm about to disappear for a week.
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
_______________________________________________ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig

I would imagine uselesspython is very welcome site, especially the tutorials page which I proposed earlier. The informal, irreverent tone and evident self-deprecating sense of humor throughtout will turn off some, but surely attract others. There is nothing to intimidate here. The personal tone of labor of love, and slightly wacky mood is great. The real message is simple and important: "Hey you too can program Python and its fun!" Pefect for some newbies imho.
This seems to be a major point of appeal. I toned down the wacky-ness a while back, and received numerous requests to change it back.
Rob
Useless Python has received a few hundred "thanks for existing" email messages from newbies, despite what I consider to be grossly-inadequate management on my own part. This is the reason the site remains in place so far.
Rob, please can you characterize your readers for us:
What level, age, response ? What's most popular, what sort of questions ?
The only ones who have mentioned their ages seem to be in their early to middle teens. However, responses seem to range from young people learning Python as a first language, college/graduate students who think Python is "a breath of fresh air", and professional programmers dabbling in Python for the first time. Only a few have asked questions of me upon discovery of the site, and I have consistently suggested the Python Tutor list as an appropriate place to ask programming questions. I have learned quite a bit, but I know where those questions belong. (And, despite my own fingerprints all over the site, I still consider it a direct side-effect of the Python Tutor email list.)
Since the site is an out-of-pocket expense stemming from my love of the language, I would appreciate constructive advice.
Thanks, and please do keep it up. and since you asked the conventional designer in me says
Navigation 1:
I feel that navigation is the second weakest element of the site, and have been giving a lot of thought to how to address the matter without messing up the experience too much. The site's single greatest point of weakness is that it lacks automation and is maintained manually by one person. Automating the site could well be the means to resolving both the navigation and management issues. The tricky part is that the original design concept was indeed for the user to rummage through the randomly-ordered source files. This didn't seem as problematic when there were only a few dozen source files, but with the next major update the number should increase to well over 200. At this size, I can certainly understand the frustrations expressed by a few. (Fewer than half a dozen to date, including today's comments.) regards, Rob

[Guido van Rossum, on http://uselesspython.com]
Sorry, it doesn't really strike me as a strong newbie resource.
Maybe that's why it's successful <wink>. Useless Python started spontaneously on the Tutor List, and has been very popular there ever since. People love that it's not all dead serious, and the organized link collections linked to at the top ("Getting Started", "Python Challenge", "Tutorials", etc) are really top-notch by any measure -- check 'em out. Rob, keep it up! I expect Guido will grow fonder of it when he gets back from his trip and has more time to click around. Heck, stumbling into treasures is part of the fun of the site! precognitively-channeling-ly y'rs - tim

On Saturday 19 October 2002 01:27 pm, Guido van Rossum wrote:
Would it be good to put Useless Python on the Newbies page too?
Sorry, it doesn't really strike me as a strong newbie resource.
I respectfully disagree -- I think I'm still enough of a newbie to speak from personal impressions. I've spent less time there than I would like, but what I did spend was very pleasant. It goes a long way to showing the sorts of things one can do with Python, which is one of the first things a newbie wants to know: "Why should I learn this? What's it good for?" Seeing easy or compact solutions for problems which seem hard is a great builder of confidence in the language. Furthermore, the site is full of ideas about how to tackle a problem, which is something else newbies are often looking for. Now, I'm not a newbie to programming, but only to Python (and since I've been at it a year or so, I'm not so much of a newbie anymore), but I found it very invigorating, if a bit misnamed ;-). The light humor, though, makes it a lot less threatening. Cheers, Terry -- Terry Hancock ( hancock at anansispaceworks.com ) Anansi Spaceworks http://www.anansispaceworks.com

[Terry Hancock, also defends http://uselesspython.com ] Note that Guido added a link to this, at http://www.python.org/doc/Newbies.html before going on his trip. So it's safe for at least a week <wink>.

OK, OK. Useless Python isn't! I've added it to the list of "online tutorials" (for want of a better category). --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

I feel that navigation is the second weakest element of the site, and have been giving a lot of thought to how to address the matter without messing up the experience too much. The site's single greatest point of weakness is that it lacks automation and is maintained manually by one person. Automating the site could well be the means to resolving both the navigation and management issues.
I wish I knew more Zope to help out here; I'm still trying to get my head around it. But from what I understand, perhaps Zopifying Useless Python may help with the content-management side of things!
The tricky part is that the original design concept was indeed for the user to rummage through the randomly-ordered source files. This didn't seem as problematic when there were only a few dozen source files, but with the next major update the number should increase to well over 200. At this size, I can certainly understand the frustrations expressed by a few. (Fewer than half a dozen to date, including today's comments.)
I know it's heretical to look at what the Perl folks are doing, but I can't help it. *grin* The Perl folks have a site called http://www.perlmonks.org that combines aspects of both the Tutor mailing list and Useless Python. It's a large repository for Perl knowledge. It might be nice to see what things perlmonks is doing right, and see if we can apply those things to Useless Python.

I've looked at PerlMonks before, although it's been a while. As far as successfully automating Useless Python goes, I've got a few general thoughts. My vision: - Newbie (or non-newbie) decides to upload a source file and fills out a form to do so. Form elements would be the author's name, a description of the program (brief), and a field to browse their hard drive to select the file. An administrative email is sent to the small team of volunteers who approve/deny the submission. Denial would only occur in cases in which the submission is wildly irrelevant (such as it not being a Python program in any way). - For browsing files to rummage through, which is currently done by clicking on the numbered pages, I would like to add options. This could mean searching for keywords or modules used in the source files, which might make Useless Python a truly powerful repository. Alternatively, we could have a database of general categories that source files fit into (such as "GUI", "socket", etc., etc.), which is vastly more limited, but probably easy enough to implement. There appear to be a number of web hosting services available where we would have access to any number of resources, and costs appear to be non-prohibitive with some Python-friendly hosts. Any thoughts? Rob
-----Original Message----- From: Danny Yoo [mailto:dyoo@hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu] Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 5:03 PM To: Rob Cc: edu-sig@python.org Subject: RE: [Edu-sig] re: Slighly OT: O'Reilly article [other resources for newbies?]
I feel that navigation is the second weakest element of the site, and have been giving a lot of thought to how to address the matter without messing up the experience too much. The site's single greatest point of weakness is that it lacks automation and is maintained manually by one person. Automating the site could well be the means to resolving both the navigation and management issues.
I wish I knew more Zope to help out here; I'm still trying to get my head around it. But from what I understand, perhaps Zopifying Useless Python may help with the content-management side of things!
The tricky part is that the original design concept was indeed for the user to rummage through the randomly-ordered source files. This didn't seem as problematic when there were only a few dozen source files, but with the next major update the number should increase to well over 200. At this size, I can certainly understand the frustrations expressed by a few. (Fewer than half a dozen to date, including today's comments.)
I know it's heretical to look at what the Perl folks are doing, but I can't help it. *grin*
The Perl folks have a site called http://www.perlmonks.org that combines aspects of both the Tutor mailing list and Useless Python. It's a large repository for Perl knowledge.
It might be nice to see what things perlmonks is doing right, and see if we can apply those things to Useless Python.
participants (7)
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Danny Yoo
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David Craig
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Guido van Rossum
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Jason Cunliffe
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Rob
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Terry Hancock
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Tim Peters