Hi! After having had the messages of this thread forwarded to me by my Python-programming s.o. I finally decided to join the list myself... I hope I'm not coming in with too much noise. I: 35. Female. M.A. in English Philology. Self-employed since '95, mainly as project manager and web developer in (mostly academic) eLearning projects. Devout Debian Linux user since I was forcefully evangelized into admitting it's BETTER. Budding Zope developer. Don't write my own Python code (yet) but know just enough to adapt/change code for my purposes. Usual opener on IRC: "bea?" "is that your real name?" (yes) "why don't you have a handle?" (why?) "you mean... you're a *girl*? (could I be your mother?) Maybe one practical way to go about this is to ask _me_ why I don't write Python yet. Answer: 'coz I don't have to. That may sound like a really daft answer but it probably is one that many females will give. The guiding principle is: it's not supposed to be _fun_, it's supposed to be _useful_. I am not entirely sure to which degree that attitude is inflicted upon us by nature and to which degree by culture but I would argue that both go hand in hand, which makes gender issues so difficult to deal with, in every respect. Although I find the academic approach very interesting (and indulge in it myself when life gets boring), I daresay that it shoots right beyond the ears of women who are, as the stereotype goes, practical and target-oriented rather than playful and tool-oriented. I could tell stories for hours of things that have happened to my biz partner (also female) and me over the years because we are "computer girls" by profession and by passion. I read a quote by a female senior manager a few weeks ago (beats me where I found it, I hope she welcomes being repeated...) that went along the lines of "there is no glass ceiling, there is just a thick layer of men". Well: enter a geek-driven IRC Channel as a girl and say something... it always amounts to: "Hello, Thick Layer!". It takes guts... guys may find that weird, but many women will silently acquiesce and smirk. It's great fun though. So there I am talking about social issues, about my self-image, about bits of my life. The issue of "how to get girls to program" is a vehicle rather than the topic. That is the difference in a nutshell. You will _not_ easily get women to discuss Python as such. But you will get them to write it if there is a good reason to. And if it's cool, they'll write more Python. And when they know it _really_ well, then they may even talk about it (first amongst themselves as a crash test, then to men). The primary enjoyment will, however, be found in what they have accomplished with it and whether that product of their effort will be lauded. Women also will, the moment they find something that accomplishes the target better, in their opinion, SWITCH to something else, washing powder, facial cream or programming language. No soccer fanclub there and no outrage at the ones who write... JAVA... VB... C++... You name it! If it works, we'll use it. But if we believe in it, we'll stick with it for better or worse. After that rather elaborately polemic circumnavigation of the issue, here are my bits of (well-meant and purely subjective) advice, for whatever it's worth: - you need to offer a practical purpose that justifies using that particular tool called Python rather than something else (it's never about the super-duper 2002 8-cylinder spring model sewing machine, it's about the gorgeous clothes you get because the machine is so cool - but you know that, if you're terrible at sewing, the product will look awful, anyway) - you need to have a practical result at the end of _each_ lesson or they think they've missed the point - try to make these girls feel good about themselves - that requires a special effort and _no_ patronizing (don't make it look too easy, in other words) - don't make it look super-difficult either just because it makes you feel more secure about your knowledge (or is that just my own personal bad habit...?). They will feel defeated before the beginning - maybe find a female friend who is willing to cover the ground with you where you are (maybe as a token student who is on your side from the beginning) - offer them the chance of having a girls-only class. You may find that ridiculous, but I _know_ it will work - especially when in a mixed class, try to watch the communication patterns that evolve and to influence them accordingly. Girls will fold behind a forceful female character just as much as behind a forceful male one. Force of bad habit and genetics, I maintain. Lots of trouble for a bunch of gals, huh? Anything else? I think anyone who wants to discuss this sort of topic will do fine, solely based on the fact that they thought of asking the question. It is certainly true that many things have changed in the last 20 years and some of my misgivings are definitely only a sign of my particular generation (secondary school mid 70's, univ. mid 80's), However, we also went to an international conference in Finland last year that was entitled "high heels to hi-tech" (the theme of the conference was how to get women into engineering and computer science and was the result of a project that was attempting to work at the grassroots level). I criticized the title rather adamantly and argued that they shouldn't be surprised if girls stalled and bolted at a name like that. It turned out that it had been chosen by the women involved and they felt I was being difficult - also about criticising the sweet blond smiling little thing on the brochure, holding a mobile phone shaped like a high-heeled shoe. Since the subtitle of the conference was "increase gender equality in ICT-education and professions", I didn't think the picture reflected the topic, really. Nevertheless, I spoke at the conference and it was, after all, both controversial and interesting. Small steps, Ellie. I hope that I managed to contribute some useful bits. bea -- bea@webwitches.com ****************** "Women have never been wizards. It's against nature: You might as well say that witches can be men." (Equal Rites, T. Pratchett)