re: Network-safe Python Install for school use?
BJ writes -
WHEW. Finally head from my school district's IT dept. regarding the possibility of installing Python for kids to learn programming on. They are VERY resistant to this. I am amazed.
The LiveCD route might provide at least a partial solution. It is plausible to me that a smart kid could do more network damage from a booted Linux LiveCD than from a hard drive install. But I suspect the perception is different, and as a practical matter, one might meet with far less resistance. http://www.frozentech.com/content/livecd.php?showonly=&sort=Purpose lists over 10 available LiveCD distros whose main purpose is educational. I suspect most, if not all, include a Python distribution. But I doubt if any are ideally configured for what one might want to use as a basis for teaching Python - IDLE, pygame, whatever else, etc. There is, for example, a Lisp resource kit in the educational category: http://www.common-lisp.net/project/lisp-res-kit/ I am surprised that nothing of the sort has emerged from the Python community. My own efforts to spark interest in such a project have met with luke warm response. But I might not be the right guy to be trying to organize a community effort. Art
Art, At first glance LiveCD is an interesting solution. But the problem with it is that I want to be teaching (and learning) Python, not Linux. I don't think it will work to take a student whose background is in Windows, throw him/her on a Linux box and say, "Let's write some Python!" I think building a standalone Python CD that will run on Windows is more likely to work for me. Then at least I can tell the sysadmin that I'm not going to install anything on the PC. Kent At 9:35 AM -0500 3/20/04, Arthur wrote:
BJ writes -
WHEW. Finally head from my school district's IT dept. regarding the possibility of installing Python for kids to learn programming on. They are VERY resistant to this. I am amazed.
The LiveCD route might provide at least a partial solution. It is plausible to me that a smart kid could do more network damage from a booted Linux LiveCD than from a hard drive install. But I suspect the perception is different, and as a practical matter, one might meet with far less resistance.
http://www.frozentech.com/content/livecd.php?showonly=&sort=Purpose
lists over 10 available LiveCD distros whose main purpose is educational.
I suspect most, if not all, include a Python distribution. But I doubt if any are ideally configured for what one might want to use as a basis for teaching Python - IDLE, pygame, whatever else, etc.
There is, for example, a Lisp resource kit in the educational category:
http://www.common-lisp.net/project/lisp-res-kit/
I am surprised that nothing of the sort has emerged from the Python community. My own efforts to spark interest in such a project have met with luke warm response. But I might not be the right guy to be trying to organize a community effort.
Art
_______________________________________________ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
-- Kent S Johnson http://www.kentsjohnson.com
Art,
At first glance LiveCD is an interesting solution. But the problem with it is that I want to be teaching (and learning) Python, not Linux. I don't think it will work to take a student whose background is in Windows, throw him/her on a Linux box and say, "Let's write some Python!"
Are you sure? The beauty of a focused LiveCD is that the desktop can be configured specifically to the targeted task. One icon. Push it. IDLE fires up. In the simplest case. But in any case it is all graphical and should not seem tremendously unfamiliar. In short, I think the fact that you can be working from a focused, uncomplicated, custom graphical desktop is a plus, not a negative. The issue that I see is a way of saving one's work. Mounting the Windows drive in an appropriate spot. I frankly am not far enough into it to understand what the possibilities are here. Art
Thanks everyone for your suggestions in this frustrating experience. I have decided that since I can get more flies with honey than I can with vinegar (which I hate, but okay, I gotta' do it), I'll try the following a route the progressively brings question to their technical prowess as a last resort: 1) Inquire from them the actual make-up of the district's networking software so that -- just fo rmy own peace of mind -- I can figure out what things they *should* be able to do. 2) Inquire from my district's IT department what, specifically, are the things that Python will allow students to access on the network that they fear. 3) Inquire from the IT department if they would still worry about things with the networking removed from Python. 4) Inquire from them the structure of permissions used on the district network. 5) Ask them about making the computers CD-ROM-bootable (right now CD-ROM booting is not enabled) to allow a liveCD (though this might still be able to access the network, I guess). Well, it's a start and it's not really a decision or a "path" I guess... but at least it is a start to getting some kind of answers. Thanks again, BJ MacNevin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arthur" <ajsiegel@optonline.net> To: "'Kent Johnson'" <kent37@tds.net> Cc: <edu-sig@python.org> Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 7:22 AM Subject: RE: [Edu-sig] re: Network-safe Python Install for school use?
Art,
At first glance LiveCD is an interesting solution. But the problem with it is that I want to be teaching (and learning) Python, not Linux. I don't think it will work to take a student whose background is in Windows, throw him/her on a Linux box and say, "Let's write some Python!"
Are you sure? The beauty of a focused LiveCD is that the desktop can be configured specifically to the targeted task. One icon. Push it. IDLE fires up. In the simplest case. But in any case it is all graphical and should not seem tremendously unfamiliar.
In short, I think the fact that you can be working from a focused, uncomplicated, custom graphical desktop is a plus, not a negative.
The issue that I see is a way of saving one's work. Mounting the Windows drive in an appropriate spot. I frankly am not far enough into it to understand what the possibilities are here.
Art
_______________________________________________ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
That all sounds good. But I question this one:
3) Inquire from the IT department if they would still worry about things with the networking removed from Python.
'Removing networking from Python' seems to me a bad idea. Perhaps *instead* get your IT dept. to focus on mapping out the user/logins they will use for students so that there is accountability, regardless of any languages tools employed. This is surely their job and will help focus on useful network-oriented solutions not fear/blame. Combined with machine's IP address, they should be able to prevent any normal damage. btw, do consider linksys routers. These are nice cheap firewall devices which mighty be helpful for all concerned. Handy if you need to isolate a set of machines quickly/safely. These are typically $50-$100 and used for connecting small LANs to DSL/Cable modems. But they are also excellent as stand-alone boxes which can be used for defining and protecting small networks or sections of them. Administration is done remotely via web browser and sysadmin password login to change the box config settings. This includes setting machine numbers and subnets, assigning filters to protect/enable various protocols etc. These boxes will not complicate the district-wide software settings, but can be used to focus and manage network security needs in a very direct small-is-beautiful manner. Plus you get some flashing panel lights you can see a-at-glance whose cooking. Very easy to turn features on or off. [see link below] Good tech and support from a good company at reasonable prices. Wired or wire-less both apply. http://www.linksys.com/ http://www.linksys.com/support/TechSupport.asp for example see advanced features http://www.linksys.com/support/support.asp?spid=58#adv The most famous model is BEFSR41. Here is the manual for the wireless model. ftp://ftp.linksys.com/pdf/befsr41w_ug.pdf But as you'll see there are 8-port versions and more. hth & good luck - Jason
On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 10:22:26 -0500 Arthur <ajsiegel@optonline.net> wrote:
Art,
At first glance LiveCD is an interesting solution. But the problem with it is that I want to be teaching (and learning) Python, not Linux. I don't think it will work to take a student whose background is in Windows, throw him/her on a Linux box and say, "Let's write some Python!"
Are you sure? The beauty of a focused LiveCD is that the desktop can be configured specifically to the targeted task. One icon. Push it. IDLE fires up. In the simplest case. But in any case it is all graphical and should not seem tremendously unfamiliar.
In short, I think the fact that you can be working from a focused, uncomplicated, custom graphical desktop is a plus, not a negative.
The issue that I see is a way of saving one's work. Mounting the Windows drive in an appropriate spot. I frankly am not far enough into it to understand what the possibilities are here.
I've taught python using a custom remastered Knoppix CD. We found it very successful, and we were capable of doing things with linux on the desktop that we couldn't possibly do with windows without a large development budget and a lot of system-maintenance: - start+stop xlockmore with a blank screensaver on all machines. - start an arbitary application on all machines (during the session, idle-python, after the session, bzFlag ;) - remotly remove all icons on the desktop/menu - backup the contents of the directory the students were using to save their work on a 5-minute basis. (This was a lesson learnt the hard way, when removing icons, we removed the work-folder. *whoops*) Stephen Thorne.
Is the custom Knoppix CD available? Your description suggests that it would be a good starting point for a edu-sig distribution. On Sunday 21 March 2004 5:40 pm, Stephen Thorne wrote:
I've taught python using a custom remastered Knoppix CD. We found it very successful, and we were capable of doing things with linux on the desktop that we couldn't possibly do with windows without a large development budget and a lot of system-maintenance:
- start+stop xlockmore with a blank screensaver on all machines. - start an arbitary application on all machines (during the session, idle-python, after the session, bzFlag ;) - remotly remove all icons on the desktop/menu - backup the contents of the directory the students were using to save their work on a 5-minute basis. (This was a lesson learnt the hard way, when removing icons, we removed the work-folder. *whoops*)
On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 09:35:31 -0500 Arthur <ajsiegel@optonline.net> wrote:
The LiveCD route might provide at least a partial solution. It is plausible to me that a smart kid could do more network damage from a booted Linux LiveCD than from a hard drive install. But I suspect the perception is different, and as a practical matter, one might meet with far less resistance.
....
I am surprised that nothing of the sort has emerged from the Python community. My own efforts to spark interest in such a project have met with luke warm response. But I might not be the right guy to be trying to organize a community effort.
Art
I think it's a good idea too. I'm interested in teaching multimedia/game programming with python, and installing all those goodies on a room of windows machines would be a pain. Still, there is the question of homework: what are the students expected to do? However, in terms of getting them hooked in the first place a liveCD sounds really good.. Simon. -- Simon Burton, B.Sc. Licensed PO Box 8066 ANU Canberra 2601 Australia Ph. 61 02 6249 6940 http://arrowtheory.com
participants (7)
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Arthur -
BJ MacNevin -
Jason Cunliffe -
Kent Johnson -
Michael McLay -
Simon Burton -
Stephen Thorne