
On Feb 26, 2006, at 8:23 AM, Arthur wrote:
Brad has been quiet about his publication
Problem Solving with Algorithms and Data Structures Using Python
Thanks for the plug.
http://www.fbeedle.com/053-9.html
It's certainly of interest to me.
Of course Alan Kay expressed this week that the teaching of algorithms and data structures in CS is a problem:
that: """nothing exciting about computing today has to do with data structures and algorithms""" (Kay being paraphrased at
http://www.windley.com/archives/2006/02/alan_kay_is_com.shtml)
I don't know how accurate the paraphrasing is of what Kay said but the analogy doesn't work very well for me. To quote from the above link: One of Alan’s undergraduate degrees is in molecular biology. He can’t understand it anymore despite having tried to review new developments every few years. That’s not true in computer science. The basics are still mostly the same. If you go to most campuses, there is a single computer science department and the first course in computer science is almost indistinguishable from the first course in 1960. They’re about data structures and algorithms despite the fact that almost nothing exciting about computing today has to do with data structures and algorithms. I can go over and check with my biology colleagues tomorrow, but I'm pretty sure they still teach undergrads about molecules and cells in introductory biology. Sure the latest developments are hard to understand but I doubt they are being taught at the introductory level. Data structures and algorithms may not be exciting (for Kay), but they are as fundamental to computing as cells are to biology.

On 2/26/06, Brad Miller <bmiller@luther.edu> wrote:
Data structures and algorithms may not be exciting (for Kay), but they are as fundamental to computing as cells are to biology.
I think the goal is to get into these quickly and painlessly (Python helps!) but not make 'em the "be all end all" i.e. these are tools, means to an end, but the object is to get work done on some project of immediate import and interest. That's unlikely to be either data structures or algorithms UNLESS you're a CS major or other kind of math nerd. Nothing wrong with that, but we're not prejudiced. We're *happy* to equip students with a lot of CS savvy and send them on their merry way: to be graphic designers, to be cartoonists, to be vampire slayers or what have you. Kirby

kirby urner wrote:
On 2/26/06, *Brad Miller* <bmiller@luther.edu <mailto:bmiller@luther.edu>> wrote:
Data structures and algorithms may not be exciting (for Kay), but they are as fundamental to computing as cells are to biology.
I think the goal is to get into these quickly and painlessly (Python helps!) but not make 'em the "be all end all" i.e. these are tools, means to an end, but the object is to get work done on some project of immediate import and interest. That's unlikely to be either data structures or algorithms UNLESS you're a CS major or other kind of math nerd. Nothing wrong with that, but we're not prejudiced. We're *happy* to equip students with a lot of CS savvy and send them on their merry way: to be graphic designers, to be cartoonists, to be vampire slayers or what have you.
Well we are talking about CS courses. So I hear you reluctantly agreeing that there this it is appropriately core curricula. The first 2 words of the title of Brad's book is 'Problem Solving' - implying a "means to an ends". What else? Kay? You admire him. I judge his public persona harshly. He is paraphrases by an admirer: ""nothing exciting about computing today has to do with data structures and algorithms""" I don't think there is *nothing* to that statement. But his way is to overstate things, not state things. I don't think that is appropriate for someone claiming to represent the high order of any branch of science - as he so claims. Art
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Well we are talking about CS courses. So I hear you reluctantly agreeing that there this it is appropriately core curricula. The first 2 words of the title of Brad's book is 'Problem Solving' - implying a "means to an ends". What else?
Not really reluctantly. When learning scuba, it's good to learn about Boyle's law. And why does a bottle of coke fizz when you open it? That's part of an explanation for something too (if you run out of air, rise to the surface slowly, exhaling as you go, and you'll find you keep having enough air -- but god help you if you didn't obey the navy dive tables in the first place). But is the point of scuba to fill your head with this stuff? Not really. The point is to go down there and admire all the pretty fish, to find nemo if you will. I'm into helping students find their private nemos, whatever that means in special case -- which entails learning algorithms and data structures along the way. Re 2 words ("problem solving"): I'm not disagreeing with Brad in any way that I know of. Kay? You admire him. I judge his public persona harshly. He is
paraphrases by an admirer:
""nothing exciting about computing today has to do with data structures
and algorithms"""
I do admire Kay, more for his track record of good inventions in CS (e.g. OO/SmallTalk). That's what entitles him to rub people the wrong way with deliberately provocative statements. If he were just some guy off the street who'd read a few CS books, the effect wouldn't be the same. That being said, if *all* he does is rub people the wrong way, then I'd consider him a has been, a once great star who should now step aside and introduce us to whom he considers most promising going forward. Kay's students deserve my attention, perhaps more than Kay himself. Kay reminds me of Ted Nelson. Ted is notoriously a contrarian and likes to use the podium to decry, to broadcast his dismay with this or that dominant paradigm in computing (like, don't get him started on spreadsheets). Personal note: I've never met either Kay or Ted in person, nor even attended a live talk or lecture or presentation by either. I'd like to have that privilege sometime. In the meantime, there's streaming video and journalistic accounts. I don't think there is *nothing* to that statement. But his way is to
overstate things, not state things. I don't think that is appropriate for someone claiming to represent the high order of any branch of science - as he so claims.
Art
A root meaning of 'geek' is circus performer of some kind. Sometimes you need front men and women who rile, provoke, stir things up. You may sense in my defense of Kay an implicit defense of my own possible role going forward: as someone who deliberately sparks controversy, by saying things repeatable in cocktail parties, with lots of tittering, with others going home offended to bash their pillows late into the night: take THAT you Kirby guy, and THAT, and THAT.... Kirby

kirby urner wrote:
A root meaning of 'geek' is circus performer of some kind. Sometimes you need front men and women who rile, provoke, stir things up.
Personally I have a "been there, done that" sense on this score. San Francisco 1969, Leary, Kesey and the Merry Pranksters. Visions, visionaries, and psycho wards. Do as you will. And the truth is, I think I do understand a lot of what drives Kay, which is perhaps why he is such a Moriarty to me. Considering the gap in our technical understandings, I would expect to not understand a word he says. The problem is, I think I understand more of it than I should - too much of it in fact. Too me he is guy who took one too many hits of some kind of digital acid. Whatever. Art

Do as you will. And the truth is, I think I do understand a lot of what drives Kay, which is perhaps why he is such a Moriarty to me. Considering the gap in our technical understandings, I would expect to not understand a word he says. The problem is, I think I understand more of it than I should - too much of it in fact. Too me he is guy who took one too many hits of some kind of digital acid.
Whatever.
Art
I'm not insensitive to your intuitions on that score. I'm leaving the door open to reaching a more negative assessment in good time. For now, I'm open minded and eager for entertainment. Of the young who made it to middle age and beyond, I've so far found many of the acid heads to be worthy candidates for my attention (maybe you *shouldn't* think of running for president, if you've never tried LSD). The grownups who rigorously eschewed anything so depraved: their reward is in heaven I suppose. Some of them are even top geeks. Bottom line: I welcome diversity, and since Kay is one voice among many, I'm not especially concerned if he's off on some "wrong track" in some way (maybe he'll say so himself at some point -- we all zig zag through life, some with greater amplitude than others). I'm a liberal after all: people should have the freedom to make stupid mistakes, as long as the real costs are mostly to themselves (not the case with the neocons). Kirby
participants (3)
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Arthur
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Brad Miller
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kirby urner