Re: [Edu-sig] re: Question about a programming system.
Benjamin Fallenstein <b.fallenstein@gmx.de> on 01/05/2001 08:57:40 AM To: Arthur Siegel/NewYork/MP/RSMi@RSMi cc: edu-sig@python.org Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] re: Question about a programming system.
I can't say anything about Alice menuing yet (haven't found anything related to it), but about PovTalk. (At least about the comparison to the notes about my programming system experiment.) PovTalk let's you *key in* statements in natural language,
I believe I understand, in broad terms at least, why none of the apps I cited are greatly on point to what you are trying to accomplish. What I don't understand is why Alice is. Nor apparentlyt do you, yet. What I would say is that one of the greaqt challenges you face is achieving simplicity and accessibility while avoiding condescension. Looked at it aestthetically, rather than technically, Python achieves this wonderfully. Alice, for whatever else it might accomplish (and I admit I'm even missing that) fails miserably. I see Python|Alice as a monstrous aesthetic clash. Which is why I persist in seeking an explanation from Guido on what he sees and I miss.
I see Python|Alice as a monstrous aesthetic clash. Which is why I persist in seeking an explanation from Guido on what he sees and I miss.
Arthur, I can't enter into a discussion about this with you if you keep making statements like this. I was going to ignore your previous request for an explanation, worded in a similarly offensive way, but your insistence just got to me. Please don't address me in email any further -- it upsets me too much. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
Arthur_Siegel@rsmi.com wrote:
What I don't understand is why Alice is.
I think I do. Alice fits as an example of making programming accessible to non-programmers. This is one possible interpretation of CP4E. As described in Matt Conway's dissertation, a main point of the exploration was how to create an API that a non-programmer could use, without needing to really know how to program. While compared to Logo, Alice wasn't really educational as much as an experiment in giving non-programmers access to tools that programmers had. If you have the other reading of CP4E, which is teaching programming to everybody, then Alice isn't much of an example at all. Though it may expose people to some programming and inspire them to learn more, it isn't really a learning tool itself. In terms of literacy, it is more of a first grade reader, the Dick and Jane of programming. I think you tend more to the second interpretation. I understand you as saying "what does this Dick and Jane crap have to do with learning programming? If we dumb programming down so people can grasp it we give them no reason to stretch themselves, no reason to grow." Am I understanding you right?
participants (3)
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Arthur_Siegel＠rsmi.com -
Guido van Rossum -
Stephen R. Figgins