On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 10:17 AM, kirby urner<kirby.urner@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Another hot button issue in Portland these days is whether families have the right to demand a PDF version of any assigned textbook, versus a hardcopy edition.  We have lots of tree huggers around here, worried about "green" and unsustainability.  To quote one of my colleagues (from her blog):

"We need the text book companies to print thousands of copies of new textbooks every year, not so the authors can make money, though they make a little, but so the companies can make money... Do some central planning, and if the government can't do that without going through corporations, then it is time to [do it ourselves]".

Hmmmm, Lindsey reports her blog taken off line by Google thought police (or does someone else have that power -- under the table deal with China, to outsource censorship?).  Truly, it had some swear words, I noticed them too (kept a copy, lots of us did).

Hey, I'm between meetings here, just wanted to quick amend and extend: had interview contact with Lindsey and I'd misinterpreted what happened. She decided herself it wasn't enough in line with her own policies re hate speech, didn't accuse Google by name in her Myspace writings about it, took it down herself. I'd reached that conclusion on my own (asking only rhetorically if someone else had the power), probably because paranoid. I apologize for blowing up at Google, pent up frustration with the search box (upper left) coming through as well. I've worried about Chinese censors before, lets see if I can find that old blog post (using search box...): http://controlroom.blogspot.com/2006/01/memo-re-google-in-china.html (I can only find that through the main Google search engine, but typing Memo in upper left of the right blog doesn't find it, nor does the word Blogger work, nor does "First Amendment" in quotes). Kirby

She's got some other blogs planned.  Fair warning about Google (the search feature within blogs is also anemic, could be we're seeing an over-stretched infrastructure here, wouldn't surprise anyone).

I didn't see anyone liking the "PDF option" option yet, except on some of the student organizer blogs.  I'm guessing most teachers are too comfortably middle class to wanna rock the boat around gratuitous tree killing.

I also got some hate mail (from Florida) claiming Portland has no right to subvert the authority of CS departments by phasing in Pythonic math with no direction from them.  I pointed out we're working closely with MIT and various Silicon Forest companies with a strong CS track record, don't need to work with universities in Florida, or anyone kowtowing to ETS for that matter.

Such is life in the fast lane, back to work,

Kirby

I met Maria Litvin at SIGCSE 2008 where she gave a very introductory workshop on Python and math based on this book. She is the coach of the high school programming team at Phillips Academy. She introduced me to JavaBat.com and was trying to persuade Nick Parlante and Stuart Reges to translate JavaBat and "Building Java Programs A Back to Basics Approach" respectively into Python. She was very approachable and can be reached via http://www.andover.edu/Academics/Mathematics/Faculty/Pages/MathematicsFacult.... Daniel Ford Linfield College -----Original Message----- From: edu-sig-bounces+ford=linfield.edu@python.org [mailto:edu-sig-bounces+ford=linfield.edu@python.org] On Behalf Of Edward Cherlin Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 11:06 AM To: kirby urner Cc: edu-sig@python.org Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] poking some dying logs... On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:36 PM, kirby urner<kirby.urner@gmail.com> wrote:

I'd like to make another plug for including this title on the edu-sig home page:

http://www.skylit.com/mathandpython.html

Ian thought it was too much a hybrid of CS and math, not an elegant amalgamation, though I don't have has remarks in front of me at the moment.  Steve was gonna get back to us.  Andre thought he might work it onto the page...

I like the concept but not the execution. The student doesn't find out what properties of various data structures and mathematical objects are fundamental. There is too much of the old style of telling students what to learn, and neither explaining why nor allowing students to discover. I find it annoying that the book gives complex number examples, but shies away from actually using complex arithmetic. Far more CS could be introduced at the level of the math being used. The book uses Python, but none of the very capable math software available beyond graphing calculators. I prefer Ken Iverson's approach, in which he taught how to write programs to do algebraic manipulations and symbolic differentiation. Does anybody know these authors? Can we engage them in a process to improve what they have done? Maria Litvin Phillips Academy, Andover, Massachusetts Gary Litvin Skylight Software, Inc.

That was all months ago by now, so it make sense to raise the issue again, as the title does break new ground in some ways, has claim to being a math teaching book, yet uses a computer language (one most of us know).

'Concrete Mathematics' and 'The Art of Computer Programming' are both math books of course, amenable to a "through programming" approach. Jsoftware folks implemented the former in J, whereas the latter is in MMX already.

Another hot button issue in Portland these days is whether families have the right to demand a PDF version of any assigned textbook, versus a hardcopy edition.  We have lots of tree huggers around here, worried about "green" and unsustainability.  To quote one of my colleagues (from her blog):

"We need the text book companies to print thousands of copies of new textbooks every year, not so the authors can make money, though they make a little, but so the companies can make money... Do some central planning, and if the government can't do that without going through corporations, then it is time to [do it ourselves]".

Anyway, just wanted to re-raise that as well.

I mostly do my computer / technical reading on Safari, have no problem with recycling already printed books, have no problem with small press runs.  But I can see where truck loads of spanking new 400 page math books, hot off the press, none containing any computer programming to speak of, let alone Mites, Sytes or Kites (honeycomb stuff, important to gnu-bees), would provoke a crisis in conscience for our more ethical.

This is the kind of thing 15 year olds talk about.  They're suspicious of adults who can't follow their logic (about saving trees), undermines adult authority to not have a response.  So do we all favor an "opt out" option for hard copy textbooks?  Say aye?  Say nay?

Kirby _______________________________________________ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig

-- Silent Thunder (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) is my name And Children are my nation. The Cosmos is my dwelling place, The Truth my destination. http://earthtreasury.org/worknet (Edward Mokurai Cherlin) _______________________________________________ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig

On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 11:06 AM, Edward Cherlin<echerlin@gmail.com> wrote:

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:36 PM, kirby urner<kirby.urner@gmail.com> wrote:

...

I'd like to make another plug for including this title on the edu-sig home page:

http://www.skylit.com/mathandpython.html

Ian thought it was too much a hybrid of CS and math, not an elegant amalgamation, though I don't have has remarks in front of me at the moment.  Steve was gonna get back to us.  Andre thought he might work it onto the page...

I like the concept but not the execution. The student doesn't find out what properties of various data structures and mathematical objects are fundamental. There is too much of the old style of telling students what to learn, and neither explaining why nor allowing students to discover. I find it annoying that the book gives complex number examples, but shies away from actually using complex arithmetic. Far more CS could be introduced at the level of the math being used.

The book uses Python, but none of the very capable math software available beyond graphing calculators. I prefer Ken Iverson's approach, in which he taught how to write programs to do algebraic manipulations and symbolic differentiation.

Does anybody know these authors? Can we engage them in a process to improve what they have done?

                         Maria Litvin Phillips Academy, Andover, Massachusetts                          Gary Litvin                    Skylight Software, Inc.

Thanks for you feedback Edward. I have an all day meeting Aug 7 focusing on computer science teaching issues, hosted by the same lobbying group that showed me this book in the first place, have the complete text in PDF. My own response was the book wants to be taken seriously according to various "math text" criteria associated with 1900s curriculum writing, somewhat strict and formal, no silly pictures, very not like the new O'Reilly books. An old kind of pedagogy and, as such, a "specimen". However, there's useful stuff here and I'd like my students to go through it. I think the strategy might be to come to said Litvins' text with higher level Python skills that the book demands, so that even if the approach seems somewhat austere and intimidating, the Python skills themselves aren't all that high, something we get beyond in the Sandes book for example. So I imagine a teacher who is properly respectful of mathematical content, but doesn't discourage students from making snarky remarks about the level of Python, which everyone in this class supersedes, is far better at than this book requires. The "math" may be high level, but the Python is middle-grade, yellow belt, even white belt. I'm thinking teachers themselves need to be empowered to mix a good mix for their kids, are the alchemists with final authority, and putting all our eggs in any one textbook, or two, or three, or twenty, is not a good idea. The stuff I've published and made available for free at my web site is both higher level Python and higher level math, one might argue, and really anyone technically literate is in a position to publish a portfolio of such writings. We aren't waiting for the "authoritative set of textbooks", though we welcome more PDFs coming online, can always use more. That being said, many teachers *are* waiting for some "next big textbook" to come down the pipe. I'm not saying every school is in "launch mode" in 2009. But a lot of us are. We have all the tools we need, all the dots connected, plenty of teaching talent chomping at the bit, not waiting for anything, think starting the race is long overdue (oh wait, the gun fired years ago, we've been running all this time.... sometimes I forget I'm a race horse, pretty fast one, duh). Kirby

...

That was all months ago by now, so it make sense to raise the issue again, as the title does break new ground in some ways, has claim to being a math teaching book, yet uses a computer language (one most of us know).

'Concrete Mathematics' and 'The Art of Computer Programming' are both math books of course, amenable to a "through programming" approach. Jsoftware folks implemented the former in J, whereas the latter is in MMX already.

Another hot button issue in Portland these days is whether families have the right to demand a PDF version of any assigned textbook, versus a hardcopy edition.  We have lots of tree huggers around here, worried about "green" and unsustainability.  To quote one of my colleagues (from her blog):

"We need the text book companies to print thousands of copies of new textbooks every year, not so the authors can make money, though they make a little, but so the companies can make money... Do some central planning, and if the government can't do that without going through corporations, then it is time to [do it ourselves]".

Anyway, just wanted to re-raise that as well.

I mostly do my computer / technical reading on Safari, have no problem with recycling already printed books, have no problem with small press runs.  But I can see where truck loads of spanking new 400 page math books, hot off the press, none containing any computer programming to speak of, let alone Mites, Sytes or Kites (honeycomb stuff, important to gnu-bees), would provoke a crisis in conscience for our more ethical.

This is the kind of thing 15 year olds talk about.  They're suspicious of adults who can't follow their logic (about saving trees), undermines adult authority to not have a response.  So do we all favor an "opt out" option for hard copy textbooks?  Say aye?  Say nay?

Kirby _______________________________________________ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig

-- Silent Thunder (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) is my name And Children are my nation. The Cosmos is my dwelling place, The Truth my destination. http://earthtreasury.org/worknet (Edward Mokurai Cherlin)