| 1) Why are there so few girl and women interested in programming? | (look, for instance, at the list of partiicipants of all those mailing | lists) In the U.S. this is mostly cultural, programming is a "boy" thing since it is "technical". This really irritates me, but both my teen-age cousin and my little sister (now in college) quoted me this exact idology -- no amount of resoning helped. Their parents did them the greatest dis-service by re-enforcing this insane cultural division and rebutting me on every turn. Consequently, one is now becoming a nurse and the other one is a sales clerk. Both of them had the brains to be strong programmers. Pity. I'd say the biggest problem leading up to this is that Girls are typically shorted in Math and Science. Teachers don't go out of their way to explain hard concepts and the Girls are culturally penalized for being inquisitive. Instead they are focused on their Language, Social Studies, and other Liberal Arts classes. Thus, one of the biggest problems when teaching Girls to program (as I tried to teach my little sister) is that they frequently lack solid Mathematical background, and hence fall short when facing simple logical constructs; such as the transtive property: (A or B) and C <==> (A and C) or (B and C) | 2) How do I get them interested? Which kinds of material, approaches, | examples etc. are appealing to female students? Following are thoughts as to how I would do it... they are not tested and are merely specification. So please take any statements given very lightly. First, I'd be very concrete. If possible, I'd start with a local shop keeper who has a concrete problem to be solved. Have the girls document this problem in detail, writing out the requirements and other such things. This step will "orient" themselves to the end goal of programming -- to help someone else save time. I speculate that once programming is grounded in a real-world need such as this, Girls will be much more attentive to the learning exercise. Further, in this step you are leveraging their strong liberal art background, thus leading them into computer science from their strong hand. Next, I'd have them formally write out the requirements in a language like "structured english". Unfortunately, the best text on this subject, Tom DeMarco's Structured Analysis and System Specification is out of print. This book in particular has a brilliant explanation of what programming is all about -- model building. And it goes into detail about old-style system specifications; which, BTW, use indentation for structure. Parallel to the thread above, I'd start them off with Charles Petzold's book CODE. This is an exquisite introduction to how information is stored in a computer, how transistors work, etc. Without this sort of book everything that Python does is "magic" ... and you want to avoid magic if at all possible. For an excersise, I'd start having children learn to count in binary using their fingers. Then, if you have a 30 some group; I'd build an adder. Have each person be an OR or AND circut. Do this outside on the playground so that it's fun. Have them pass around blocks with a 1 on one side and a 0 on the other. Following Petzold's work, I would dive directly into logic and formalism. For an class here in the U.S., I'd start with and ambiguous sentance "Tom or Jane will go to the store". This could mean Either Tom or Jane, but not Both; or Tom or Jane or Both Tom and Jane. Explain that computers are very strict and that they form a "model" or "interpretation" of reality. At this point, so that they don't loose track of their end goal; I'd have them re-write their requirements to be a bit more "formal". At this point, you can teach them about transitive law by simple use of truth tables, etc. These sort of things are best done in an "oh by the way" as if they were just "mere details" as to how the "comptuer program operates". Avoid at all costs the word "think". Comptuters do not think, they operate. Talking about computers as if they think just adds to the mysticism and creates fear. Computers are dumb boxes that do exactly what you tell them to do. It's very important that the student feel like they are in control at all times. Somewhere around now, you will want to explain the parts of a computer to your class. The CPU, the BUS, MEMORY, etc. If possible do this in a role-playing manner. Have one person be the CPU, another person be the BUS, still another person be the MEMORY (in front of a bookshelf if at all possible). Getting a mental model for how a comptuter operates is very important step that should be tackled before showing them how to sling code. This is *alot* of work up till this point, but here, and only here should you introduce them to slinging code. Start with small stuff, and motivate each thing you teach them as part of the "solution" to the problem that they started the class with. Let the program which solves the shop keeper's problem emerge in front of them. It's perfectly OK for you to write the code out and explain it for them. Better yet, develop it interatively. Don't bother about explaining HOW it works. If you've done your job up till now (via Logic, Petzold, etc) it will be obvious to them how it works... they should grasp it intutitively. What is important is that a working program is pumped out very quickly here, don't worry about everyone getting everything. Once they see a working program constructed before their very eyes (with them suggesting how to build it), computers will no longer be magical for them. And taking away the magic is the most important thing that can happen. Finally, you can start-in with your traditional programming course. Going through line by line how the program written works, and making improvements to it. After a short while, then you can start in with having them do their own creative works of authorship... in groups. I'd never have them work individually till the very end. Programming, IMHO, is a group activity. Think Pair Programming and XP all the way through this. Let the student guide you... they will know what has to be done, they just won't know how to do express it in code. With time they will learn by example. I hope this makes sense; after teaching a few people how to program and musing how this would scale to a class, this is probably how I would approach it. Kinda non-traditional, but then again, I wouldn't know what traditional is... | Do YOU have any experiences concerning this question. Jeff Elkners | Python-Video implicitly adresses this problem in a very fine way, choosing | a girl as the main propagator of Python. | | On the other hand looking at a video and reading a tutorial text are | different things - I'm sorry that I can't give "experiential" knowlege. Above is idealistic thoughts as to how it could work, albeit thoughts which are extrapolated from many small teaching experiences. Best, Clark -- Clark C. Evans Axista, Inc. http://www.axista.com 800.926.5525 XCOLLA Collaborative Project Management Software

(Also sent to the original poster...) Gregor Lingl wrote:

... I'll formulate two questions:

1) Why are there so few girl and women interested in programming? (look, for instance, at the list of partiicipants of all those mailing lists)

And consequently 2) How do I get them interested? Which kinds of material, approaches, examples etc. are appealing to female students?

Do YOU have any experiences concerning this question. J

Yes, I have some experiences in this area. See my Pearls of Perl handout, the other Perl items, and the Mars Space camp link. http://home.mindspring.com/~djrassoc01/ I did the computer club sessions last year using the same approach as with Perl but using Python and it worked well. The handouts are not ready to go up yet though. If I had to boil what I learned about this down to 25 words or less, I would say: Boys learn by taking things apart. Girls learn by putting things together. The implication of this (gross oversimplification) is that in addition to the basic elements of the language you give boys examples which do things computationally (and they must all have a visual graphical componet) and encourage them to tear it apart, change it, and try to make it work. With girls, in addition to the basic elements of the language, you give them templates that they can expand upon and mold to their taste that produces something that they feel is intrinsically valuable as an end goal (like an interactive story or what-if diary). So, the task of writing an interactive story using Perl or Python or whatever works well as a vehicle for an overall goal of teaching a computing language because it is a goal beyond the learning of the computing language of itself and it is not mathematical but literary as a focus and that works better for many students who have written stories from Grade 1 but have not had the same experiences in Math. [You can lament this lack of math experience extensively and say it should be so and argue that you should use Python (or Perl or Java or C++ or whatever) to address it but I think such a tack is unproductive and it is better to address the main goal of interesting both boys and girls in becoming as literate in communicating to computers as they are in communicating to human beings.] Depending on the student, they can adapt the story vehicle to whatever it is that motivates them. Even if you don't get graphical elements going (which can be very hard to be successful at particularly with the expectations that kids get from seeing commercial programs), stories can engage the imagination (as they have for 3000 years). Boys in my experience tend to be more willing to focus on learning the language and 'messing around' with it. Girls tend to become motivated when you can propose a project which means something to them beyond the fact that it is a computer program written in Language X or Y or Z. It is also helpful if you partner with a woman as well as I have found that I am often times not as aware of what the dynamics is in the class setting. In particular, there are situations where you find that boys are totalling monopolizing you by asking questions while the girls are sitting patiently waiting to get a word in. You have to make sure you give equal time to them and if necessary let the boys not have as much time as they want. The above comments are based on my experiences and are not meant to assert the truth of any claim -- just to describe based on my limited experience 'what is' and 'what seems to work'. --David -- Dr. David J. Ritchie, Sr. djrassoc01@mindspring.com http://home.mindspring.com/~djrassoc01/

I'll do it in German and I hope to get it published, as there is a very severe lack of material of this kind in the German speaking countries. (On the other side Python still is not very well known at least among teachers in Germany - so it's quite uncertain who will be willing to study such things. Nevertheless trying to make Python more popular is worth the effort.)

Kudos! I think this is great thing.

1) Why are there so few girl and women interested in programming? (look, for instance, at the list of partiicipants of all those mailing lists)

I don't actually know the answer to this..it may still be partly enculturation. Its still not entirely cool for a women to think. Especially for them to think logically. As a generality it might be that girls often prefer to base their thinking on values rather than principle. Which is not a bad way to organized your thought processes it just means that that they prefer to be taught in a subjective manner rather than an objective manner. ie: How does this knowledge apply to them and the human being beside them.>

And consequently 2) How do I get them interested? Which kinds of material, approaches, examples etc. are appealing to female students?

I'm determined to learn Phython but I find that my lack of general knowledge of programming makes it difficult to figure out what to write. Because I'm a painter, I'll use that as an analogy. Many people who do not know how to use the materials and language of paint will often flounder when asked to paint a picture. The question is "well what should I paint". When they know the language and the material it suddenly doesn't matter what they paint...anything will do just so you can make something beautiful with the language and the materials. When I speak of language here I'm speaking of the principles of pictorial depiction. So I think one of the ways to get girls (anyone really) interested is to design projects for them to do, that are fun and almost inadvertently teach the language. >

Do YOU have any experiences concerning this question. Jeff Elkners Python-Video implicitly adresses this problem in a very fine way, choosing a girl as the main propagator of Python.

Hmmm I didn't know about this...will have search for it. E -- ekotyk http://members.shaw.ca/e.kotyk/virtualstudio.htm

Rob Brown-Bayliss wrote:

...

1) Why are there so few girl and women interested in programming? (look, for instance, at the list of partiicipants of all those mailing lists)

It's a silly question, but one that a few years ago I also would have found important...

In my opinion, it's not a silly question when you know girls who took Perl from you in 6th grade and Python from you in 8th grade and continue to impress you with their concentration in making updates to their object-oriented adventure game while the boys in the room carry on -- no doubt learning things but in quite different way. What is the approach that enhances the interests of the girls in going after their goals in the computing area? How does one make sure the environment does not impede their progress? Their other interests, that I knew about, were Highland Dance and Theater not atypical for their age.

Maybe you could rephrase your question, why are there so few men interested in fashion industry? How many men do you know who even contemplate making their own clothes?

Can't answer that but I can tell you that I have heard about sewing machines that are run by Windows PC's and am waiting for the Sewing teacher (where my son learned to make a pair of boxer shorts in 7th grade) to stop me and ask about Python and Sewing Machines... All the 7th grade students (boys and girls) take L.I.F.E which we used to call Home Ec. and do a number of cooking and sewing projects. --D. -- Dr. David J. Ritchie, Sr. djrassoc01@mindspring.com http://home.mindspring.com/~djrassoc01/

On Wed, 2002-08-07 at 03:39, Kirby Urner wrote:

A different question: why is computer programming supposedly less like loving babies and designing dresses, and more like breaking things? Based on the above description, I can see why it might be a priority to get the boys *out* of programming :-D.

Havent looked here for a while, hence teh late reply.... It has nothing to do with breaking things (unless your are the type to break things when they don;t go your way) and everything to do with this: Boys and Girls/ Women and Men are different. Celebrate it! Seriously, why does the world think "sexual equality = same as". I dont. I[*] am all for women having equal rights, equal opportunities, but dont turn girls in to boys and boys into girls. celebrate the differences. I read a study about 10-12 years ago, it mentioned simple facts, Women make better Biologists, men make better physicists. There were several other examples. None of that means a man cant be a world class biologist, or even the best, and same about women and physics. Just that in general, taking 1000 men and 1000 women in each filed and comparing skills and knowledge there are differences. Why? Because we are different. Not greater and lesser, just different. Women obviously relate better to biology, the concepts grab their attention perhaps? Who knows, but given a choice I prefer female doctors to male ones any day... On the other hand, men relate to physical things better than women, we have a better understanding of spatial relationships for example. does not mean a women cant be the greatest jet pilot in the world. We could take this concept further, and make it racial. Look at the Olympic sprinters, the great ones. More often than not that are from African racial stock, as opposed to Europeans. The opposite seems to hold for swimming. There are racial differences, does not mean that one race is better, nicer or mare caring about the environment does it? Just that some races run faster in general, one swims faster in general... So back to the girls and programming, yse, there will be girls who like the idea, and are great at it, but dont go pushing all girl;s into it just to satisfy your own ideals... Let them take it or leave it depending on their own desires. But, by all means do make them do an intorduction, cant make a choice with out trying can they? [*] I am in fact a house dad, I look after the kids while lean earns the money. Simply because we dont believe in placing young kids in someones care 8-10 hours a day while we both work and Leanne wanted to make use of her education., -- * * Rob Brown-Bayliss *

On Tue, 2002-08-20 at 03:45, Rob Brown-Bayliss wrote: [...]

Seriously, why does the world think "sexual equality = same as". I dont. I[*] am all for women having equal rights, equal opportunities, but dont turn girls in to boys and boys into girls. celebrate the differences.

First let me thank you for being in favour of my equal rights, it is most appreciated :) I couldn't agree more, by the way. You will not find many women who aspire at being men. We actually _like_ being ourselves (as long as we don't look at advertising, that is). I believe that the issue is actually one of turning girls into girls and boys into boys. My father recently mentioned at a family gathering that it was his greatest regret that he never realised my intelligence and potential when I was a kid and that he knows, nowadays, that is was because I had an older (very bright) brother and I was the girl. Since he is 65, I was very deeply touched by this moment of insight. Since he was a programmer for 40 years and I ended up glued to a keyboard after all, genetics seem to be the best explanation. I excelled at maths at school, I just found trigonometry to be an entertaining, but intensely useless skill at the time. So he thought I was daft... bizarre. Suffice it to say that my best personal examples of successful female mathematicians do NOT have brothers. Intellectual nurturing does not turn girls into boys. But lack of intellectual nurturing stops kids from developing brains and, at least in my generation (born '66), intellectual nurturing was still for the boys. There is sociological and also neurological evidence on that. There is a fair chance that many women simply _were_ kept pretty stupid for a long time and that attitude still has a lot of echoes in families, schools and workplaces. I am glad we have stopped celebrating that particular difference. [...]

So back to the girls and programming, yse, there will be girls who like the idea, and are great at it, but dont go pushing all girl;s into it just to satisfy your own ideals... Let them take it or leave it depending on their own desires.

Aah, the crux lies with the economy. It has become a political issue all over the computerized world that we require many more IT professionals than are available, so politicians have had this wonderful idea to let women have a piece of the cake. Hence, the doors were opened everywhere and women did not respond as happily as expected. They finally "let them" and women "left it". In the past, no one had made a great effort to bridge the gap and now it is not desire but necessity that has forced the issue. Well, women object to being "let in", they want to be _asked_ in :) Both genders operate on self-respect, that is a _similarity_ that is not being celebrated enough yet, as far as I'm concerned.

But, by all means do make them do an intorduction, cant make a choice with out trying can they?

That is precisely the issue. And since "they" are needed, it is also a good idea to introduce programming to them in the way they desire. Much of bad pedagogy is about spoonfeeding children with stuff they don't want to know, and much of good pedagogy is about finding out what makes children tick. Teaching girls how to program is just one of the latest chapters in that particular book and I am thrilled that this discussion is taking place here.

[*] I am in fact a house dad, I look after the kids while lean earns the money. Simply because we dont believe in placing young kids in someones care 8-10 hours a day while we both work and Leanne wanted to make use of her education.,

Good for you! Sadly, statistics prove that the number of families who can live safely on one income is rather small in Europe and also that women usually earn a good bit less than their mates, no matter in what profession. So I am happy to hear that it works out for you. ciao bea -- bea@webwitches.com ****************** "Women have never been wizards. It's against nature: You might as well say that witches can be men." (Equal Rites, T. Pratchett)

Very off topic but in regard to this from Dethe...

...

Good for you! Sadly, statistics prove that the number of families who can live safely on one income is rather small in Europe --

It is my suspicion that once the cultural values changed so that it was acceptable (or even desired) that both person's were employed a new equilibrium arose in which the salaries were such that both persons >must< work. I.e., The salary of the former stay at home went up while the salary of the person working went down in real purchasing power at least. Thus what you see now that both must work is simply a new equilibrium point far different from the 1950's one in which the person working was paid a certain amount because 'after all they have a family to support'. As I said..very off topic... -- Dr. David J. Ritchie, Sr. djrassoc01@mindspring.com http://home.mindspring.com/~djrassoc01/

Aha, in response to Bea's post, let me clarify my earlier remarks by saying that by "equilibrium point", I did not mean equal between men and women's salaries--I meant that both have changed--gone down in my view. I am well aware that typically men's to women's is 1 to 0.59 (or something on that order). What I meant is that total household income, it my unfounded suspicion, has gone down in terms of its ability to buy a certain standard of living as compared to 50 years ago. Thus, while initially a family may have been able to live a little better by having both parties work, I think over time, the ability of that income to buy that standard of living has decreased. I think it's probably a combination of employer's realizing there are more people out there and therefore they can pay a little less (and even less to the woman of the family) and costs of that standard of living getting bid up a little more. By describing this situation which I believe is fairly factual and generally the norm, I don't mean to be approving of it--just to describe it. The net result is that in fact you more than likely have to 'take a vow of poverty' (tongue somewhat in cheek here) to raise your children in the style to which you think they should be raised -- particularly if that style is one which says its overall better if when they come home on the school bus there's a mom or a dad there to welcome them. If one is luckly, it is still possible to live a somewhat imporverished life in order to achieve that. In some areas of the world (as we have heard on this list), that is not even possible -- which is unfortunate. My apologies to the list for wading through this off topic matter even more. If anyone wants to discuss further I invite them to write me directly. --D. -- Dr. David J. Ritchie, Sr. djrassoc01@mindspring.com http://home.mindspring.com/~djrassoc01/

At 12:49 PM 8/20/2002 +1200, Rob Brown-Bayliss wrote:

It's quite quick for small simple renderings, free so not a burden to a school etc.

Might do quite well for the first few lessons, then take what they have learned and use it with python, getting another lessons in the process, Languages are similar in may respects and that skills from one can be used in another.

I completely agree. Python + Povray has been a triple-underline theme for me (Art was into it too -- even did T-shirts with the technology). See my http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/numeracy0.html and following for examples of Python + Povray in action (even for doing mundane things like graphs). Kirby

On Mon, 2002-08-19 at 20:29, Jason Cunliffe wrote:

My wife thinks we should develop love-oriented programming..

One of my personal back-burner project is to write a book called "Programming for the Fun of It," but around the house I call it "Programming for the Daniela of It," because I test my ideas on my non-techie wife. If I can get her interest and keep it, showing her how and *why* programming can be useful and fun, then I should be able to do the same for anyone, or so the theory goes. I'm also working on my 5-year old daughter now that her reading skills have gotten to the point that she can handle most words after brief exposure to them. My 2-year old son is still safe, but my mom is arriving soon and she's already gone from a techno-phobe who couldn't turn on her first computer to teaching Photoshop and digital photography, so look out. --Dethe