Re: [Edu-sig] Brainstorming about GNU Math
Kirby writes -
And it's not just programming that's kept at bay, but computer graphics and animation. The pre-college mainstream remains strangely bereft of serious-minded spatial geometry
It's frustrating how close and far we are from each other on this particular point, at the same time. Can we negotiate?? You insist - it seems to me (not directly in the quote above, but generally) - on making this a Fuller thing, and as such, something visionary, a bit rebelous, and certainly outside/beyond the of thinking of mainstream math educators. I have been able to demonstrate to you that a mathematician as mainstream as Felix Klein was pitching this exact point about spatial geometry- not abstractly in the laboratory but in seminars he conducted for pre-college math educators - at least 30 years before Fuller had a word to say on the subject. Different world views, you and I, I guess getting in the way. Klein is much more "from the mountain top" then Fuller, in my world - especially when we are talking about geometric ideas. And since we are talking about working within the academy, I think it important we have our facts straight, in terms of attribution of ideas. And from a pure *getting things accomplished* point of view, why present ideas in a way that makes them seem less mainstream, more tied to the insights of a Unique Genius, then they actually are, when one looks at the facts. Its just good math - in Kleins's presentation, at least. Art
----- Original Message ----- From: ajsiegel@optonline.net
And since we are talking about working within the academy, I think it important we have our facts straight, in terms of attribution of ideas.
Normally, BTW I'd agree with you. Why give away a thing. In this case, though, I think we need to make believe there is are Europeans, too. Art
You insist - it seems to me (not directly in the quote above, but generally) - on making this a Fuller thing, and as such, something visionary, a bit rebelous, and certainly outside/beyond the of thinking of mainstream math educators.
Yeah, that's sort of my schtick. I think it's important. More than a bit rebelous even.
I have been able to demonstrate to you that a mathematician as mainstream as Felix Klein was pitching this exact point about spatial geometry- not abstractly in the laboratory but in seminars he conducted for pre-college math educators - at least 30 years before Fuller had a word to say on the subject.
I'm happy for you to stick to Klein as your avatar. I have no problem with that. I'm sure we'll have other big names in common. I've been writing about Penrose quite a bit recently, in my blog. Just because I'm into Bucky doesn't mean I live in a vacuum, even named as I am.
Different world views, you and I, I guess getting in the way. Klein is much more "from the mountain top" then Fuller, in my world - especially when we are talking about geometric ideas.
I'm a philosophy major, entering the door of American Literature, and feeling impressed. I'm not really a mathematician wannabee. In the old trivium/quadrivium framework, that'd be a step down in rank. I have my career to think about.
And since we are talking about working within the academy, I think it important we have our facts straight, in terms of attribution of ideas.
I'm very accomplished as an academic, cite my sources religiously. In my case, Fuller is often a source. In your case, others, like Klein. There's nothing that needs fixing here. And again, I'm sure we can find overlap. Britney Spears? Dr. Evil?
And from a pure *getting things accomplished* point of view, why present ideas in a way that makes them seem less mainstream, more tied to the insights of a Unique Genius, then they actually are, when one looks at the facts.
I'm a Fuller Schooler, that's my gig, including at last year's OSCON. But I'm not trying to recruit everyone I see, saying join me, join me. I'm more looking to form alliances, already having a full crew of professionals aboard, arrrrgh. Eye patch. Parrot.
Its just good math - in Kleins's presentation, at least.
Art
Again, we can be ships passing in the night on this. My venture into the Bermuda Triangle of synergetic geometry is in the "don't try this @ home" category i.e. it's not for everyone. More like an Xtreme sport [tm]. Fun though. Kirby
----- Original Message ----- From: kirby urner <kirby.urner@gmail.com>
Again, we can be ships passing in the night on this. My venture into the Bermuda Triangle of synergetic geometry is in the "don't try this @ home" category i.e. it's not for everyone. More like an Xtreme sport [tm]. Fun though.
Except that's another big difference in our sensiblities - as a good progressive, you are a relativist. There ain't no such thing as speaking good ;) Apropos of Chuck's post, math as the new liberal art - my best sense of history comes from my sense of the history of the development iof mathematical ideas. Synergetic geometry, as I hear it presented, is about space - but somehow exists outside of time. It popped into being - an otherwordly vision. Maybe true. But in my view of what makes the study of math meaningful, its math without much meaning, to the extent we are really talking math at all, rather than something not more like - American Unaccountable Geniuses 101. Kay does make a good 102. It's a curriculum, yes. Art
Except that's another big difference in our sensiblities - as a good progressive, you are a relativist. There ain't no such thing as speaking good ;)
I have a long thread with some guy on wittgenstein-dialognet (a Yahoo! group) about moral relativism, whether Wittgenstein was one, etc. He wasn't, nor am I, seems to be the upshot of that thread.
Synergetic geometry, as I hear it presented, is about space - but somehow exists outside of time. It popped into being - an otherwordly vision.
No, Fuller casts his body of work as very time/size specific, his self-discipline, with a vocabulary that's deliberately remote and deliberately engineered. He even admits has central insights might all pre-exist in other literature. That being said, he's a born explorer and has the right to draw his map, which is what he did. I find it a very useful contribution, as I've said. He does more to interconnect the disciplines than most, and isn't writing as a geometer, specifically. I file it under Philosophy and/or Literature. It's a work in the humanities, maybe a liberal art in its own right (given how no department wants to claim it).
Maybe true. But in my view of what makes the study of math meaningful, its math without much meaning, to the extent we are really talking math at all, rather than something not more like - American Unaccountable Geniuses 101.
Kay does make a good 102.
It's a curriculum, yes.
Art
I'll file that under "from a guy who likes to have opinions" -- whether well-informed or no. If you ever undertake a serious study of Fuller's synergetics, maybe let me know. I could maybe offer a few pointers. Kirby
-----Original Message----- From: kirby urner [mailto:kirby.urner@gmail.com]
I'll file that under "from a guy who likes to have opinions" -- whether well-informed or no.
Yes I do have opinions. And among my opinions is Accountability in educational matters is fundamental and cannot be replaced by Genius and that you - and I mean a broader "you" than Kirby Urner - are broadly assaulting accountability on a number of fronts. And you need to because you are a rush. We can't have a computer on everybody's desk if we need to be Accountable for the "why". Let's do it because of Genius, we will find the why later. You do your thing, I'll do mine - is always your answer. But I think you are muddying the waters tremendously for us Accountability slobs, and doing damage. Art
If you ever undertake a serious study of Fuller's synergetics, maybe let me know. I could maybe offer a few pointers.
Kirby
Yes I do have opinions. And among my opinions is Accountability in educational matters is fundamental and cannot be replaced by Genius and that you - and I mean a broader "you" than Kirby Urner - are broadly assaulting accountability on a number of fronts.
You haven't a clue what I'm doing. You got "assaulting" right I suppose -- has a kind of Lord of the Rings ring that I like. And you need to because you are a rush. We can't have a computer on
everybody's desk if we need to be Accountable for the "why". Let's do it because of Genius, we will find the why later.
I'm a Silicon Forest exec looking after my own. Do what you will in New York. Not my problem, not my concern. Teaching Python again this morning -- we'll get into operator overloading some. Then back to string substitution with madlibs. Every kid has an Internet-enabled Win2000 box, while I project from my laptop. These basic logistics are not my concern. Portland already has its act together. You do your thing, I'll do mine - is always your answer. Exactly. What other choice is there? If you wanted to collaborate, you'd have to have more of a clue about what I do for a living, as a Fuller Schooler that is. But I think you are muddying the waters tremendously for us Accountability
slobs, and doing damage.
Art
And I think you're very far from the action to be making any kind of informed judgment. People who study my writings don't go running to Arthur for an assessment of my effectiveness, I can assure you (unless they're lost or confused). Kirby
On 3/23/06, ajsiegel@optonline.net <ajsiegel@optonline.net> wrote:
*----- Original Message -----*
*From*: kirby urner <kirby.urner@gmail.com>
I'm a Silicon Forest exec looking after my own.
So I *do* understand correctly.
I doubt it, given your track record. I want the kids around here to grow up with many opportunities, to prosper, to avail themselves of our local high tech economy if they so choose (in addition to our other natural wonders). Management of Ecotopia is not something to outsource. We'll come up with our own designs. To that end, I'm working to grow some indigenous curriculum that suits our needs. However, as it turns out, the Silicon Forest is not alone in having a high-tech, knowledge-based economy, so my work in the neighborhood sometimes earns me an invite to other necks of the woods as well.
Business is business - to be sure.
Art
Academia has its own forms of corruption. You may feel some holier than thou complex coming on, given your fantasies about some above-it-all Ivory Tower. Don't let me burst your bubble then. Dream on. Kirby
participants (3)
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ajsiegel＠optonline.net -
Arthur
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kirby urner