Mailman 3 October 2000 - Mailman-Developers

forwarded message from Guido van Rossum
by barry＠wooz.org 30 Oct '00

30 Oct '00

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] FYI -- problems with my new install...
by J C Lawrence 29 Oct '00

29 Oct '00

On Sun, 29 Oct 2000 16:22:57 -0800 Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui(a)plaidworks.com> wrote: > Be just, and fear not. Sheesh, you're having more fun than I am. (Very nice job on the site there BTW) Latest status from me on the security stuff -- which happily points away from Mailman and Python: I started out by installing a firmware-based watchdog that would auto-reboot the system when it locked (these are the references to IPMI and EMP (Intel-specific things) -- basically the mainboard firmware, running out of ASICs and not off the CPU, will hit the power reset line if it doesn't get touched every 30 seconds). I have been driving myself silly trying to figure out what is causing the instability with Kanga.Nu, and getting nowhere. There's 36Gig of disk on that box and I've near bit-walked thru every byte in there. A few minutes ago I opened a dozen plus terms on the box, all tailing various logfiles or spinning on displaying various system stats (mostly /proc stuff), plus an extra term on the localhost pinging the target to see (nearly) exactly it went down (if it did). I then approved two posts for posting on a ~1K member list. The posts went thru Mailman, hit the MTA, were fully received by the MTA, everything was looking normal and the queue runners were busy delivering copies and every stat and logfile on the system looked happy. Then the ping stopped. Every system stat I was reporting on (memory, everything) looked good -- but the machine was down. Reading thru the dozen or so terms and what they were reporting as of the instant the box died revealed, well, nothing. Everything looked very very good -- except for the fact that it was now dead. A few minutes later, after some time for the EMP watchdog to kick in (30 seconds), and the longest POST in recorded history (Intel Nightshade MB has a multi-minute-long POST that cannot be shortened), back up it popped. I'm now thinking that I may have bad memory in the box. Certainly physical RAM failure on one of the upper sticks could account for such seemingly spontaneous locks. Oh joy. I just love hardware problems. -- J C Lawrence Home: claw(a)kanga.nu ---------(*) Other: coder(a)kanga.nu http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Keys etc: finger claw(a)kanga.nu --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--

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Fwd: Mailman-Developers -- confirmation of subscription -- request 321634
by craig tamboury 29 Oct '00

29 Oct '00

confirm 321634 _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com.

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Feature/Forum
by craig tamboury 28 Oct '00

28 Oct '00

Hi. I'm looking for a Feature/Forum for the following topic that I can be directed to or find out if one can be created. "Rights VS Regulation", "Do we really write the Law?" "Beyond Politics" "Just what is Radical Reform?" something along those lines. Also this 3,172 word doc. is too long for most newspaper sections. I think it qualifies as being "newsworthy" in a part the "Fourth Estate" and I can't find anyone to "Mail" it to. Any feedback or re-direction would be greatly appreciated. My kid's soccer listserver turned out to be very helpful in directing Field Sriping/Score Card/etc. info but I'm not entirely sure what role the Developers at python play. Thanks Able adamz, leader of The Civil-American War, understands The Rule of Law and swears to uphold & defend the facts in the Declaration of Independence and the process of the Constitution. 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. Thirteen years ago in April, this announcement was not allowed to run in the Argus Courier Newspaper in Petaluma under the Announcement section in the Classified ads. Previous paid announcement were: 2-27-1985: Able adamz is running for President this next election. 3-18-1987: Able adams is now acting President of these 50 United States, Leader of The Civil-American War. 3-30 1987: Able adamz, Leader of the Civil American War, pledges allegiance to the Democracy of these 50 United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation, Indivisible with Liberty and Justice for all. They had a policy not to run anything containing an address at which the person did not live. Two letters were then mailed. One addressed "Able adamz/1600 Pennsylvania Ave." & one labeled "1600 Pennsylvania Ave." They were both returned stamped "Returned for Better Address". After telling the Editor there was no address contained in the announcement and it was a "Right" to have it run, he said he wasn't going to debate about freedom of the press. He said it was his newspaper and suggested to have it carried in an UNDERGROUND newspaper. After a few non-productive calls to the ACLU it became apparent there was no interest to pursue the issue. At that time the most common definition of the word "Politician" had all ready changed from its original meaning "Politico/Legislative Representative" to "Someone who misused words for political gain". Today it is synonymous with "Scumbag; A person who knowingly misrepresents issues for personal/political gain/power and self-esteem". We are legislating/programming the limits of our legal behavior in the form of what we call law. We humans have been doing this legislating/proclaiming/mandating for THOUSANDS of years. Democracy is over 1,000 years old. Working Republics are older than that. Over two hundred years ago when equality and individual rights were written into the foundation of our American Government, we changed forever the idea that Aristocracies or Armies were the only way to protect the people of a Nation. Protecting the Rights/Property/Liberty etc. of the individual through the enforcement of law protects the borders in which that individual lives as well. 50 States, 50 sets of laws, 1 Nation? The American Revolution was fought mostly just NOT to be ruled by someone else. Specifically King George/England. What kind of "Rule" we would win for ourselves was a dream containing bits and parts of other governments that painted a picture of something different to everyone. The world changing concepts of our now: Check and Balance System, Separation of Church and State, Rights, Equality, Liberty etc. all rolled into one, are argueably due to sheer luck, trying to meet a deadline, mental exhaustion after a War and the right people being at the right place at the right time. The latter through their own determination. The American Civil War was fought on a narrower focus: "There is no backing out!". The protections our forefathers gave us will ALWAYS apply to the people and soil for which it was intended. A Nation called America. I personally still get goosebumps thinking about what these events have meant to mankind. WWII, without argument, was defending against world domination. Due to the arrival of mass communication and the formation of Political alliances, there was no ignoring the procession of War Machines that were changing the sovereignty of countries so fast and indiscriminately that sides formed as a matter of default. Neutrality was as ineffective as the League of Nations. Good ideas, but unrealistic to rely on to defend your borders under the circumstances. The United States was not fighting for independence from an unjust Ruler nor to stop Secession nor to come to the aid of Countries that couldn't defend themselves (Korean /Viet Nam Conflict). We were fighting for our very survival in a World without an all powerful referee or "Rule Book". History tells us that Empires of the past have controlled vast areas of what we call "Civilization" for considerable amounts of time but it is obvious that none could meet the needs of controlling different cultures of people. "Civilized", is how the people of a Nation/Society/Empire/Tribe act toward one another. Possessions, wealth, table manners, technology, advanced education are irrelevant factors when gauging the "Peacefulness" of a society. This is where "The Law" comes in. Written Law may not be necessary in today's "Tribal" (Rural/Low technology) societies where oral tradition and living off the land are the way of life but it has been a part of almost every society bigger than "A handful" for over 3,000 years. Since the end of WWII, the United State along with the rest of the world has been working on the Rule Book (International Law) through the United Nations. The clear-cut intent is to reduce the chance of War between Nations through education, co-operation & The Rule of Law (A determination of the applicable rule as distinguished from the finding of fact). Like our Check & Balance System, the U.N. has a World Court, Peace Keeping Troops and a Legislative Body. This is as much as we can do outside America, but what about inside? American Law (of our own making) which is mandating the legal limits of our behavior is based on our Rights to pursue our liberties in society VS. our responsibility to respect (not infringe upon) the Rights of others. This appears to be the first premise of our program. The "Source Code" from which we can see the difference between Right (our Rights) and Wrong (Legal infringements upon others). [NOTE- if this program/software can be proprietary in nature, I hereby claim it in the name of Able adamz lest some claim jumper beats me to the Patent/Copyright office. Amen]. At this level of the program it appears you have the Right to Pursue your way in life (Work/Leisure/Interests) until one of your actions result in the infringement of the Rights of another (Victim). Example: Driving down the road with the right of way you get hit by a car not having the right of way. Some of the" Applicable Rules" that come into play now are Vehicle Code & Insurance Code. If more facts emerge (Injury or Death to passengers, Under the influence, Drag racing) more "Applicable Rules" apply (Criminal Codes, Manslaughter, etc). That is how simple the use of the "Rule of Law" is to understand. Regardless of how many facts are involved, it just tells you to match them up with the "Applicable Rules" broken. Even though we know they are still developing, children as young/old as 5 or 6 are expected to know certain things that are "Wrong" to do. Taking, hitting, saying mean untrue things about someone, scratching paint off the neighbor's car with a nail they found, throwing their candy wrapper on the ground or peeing in somebody's pool. By 12 to 14 years young/old, we have explained, iterated and re-iterated these "Wrong" things at home & school. "I didn't know that" becomes a response un-believed. Possibly a lie? When they hit 18/Adulthood these "Wrongs" described become Theft, Battery, Slander, Littering and Polluting, all punishable by "Fines" and or "Jail time". "I didn't know that" becomes "Ignorance of the Law is no excuse". What happened to the formal Training & Testing we give for "Every Other" subject we teach in school? Without argument, learning to "Be a Good Citizen", is implied as a part of the "Educational Process". Raising/lowering the "American/State" flags, saying the "Pledge of Allegiance", playing "The Star Spangled Banner" & "Mandatory Attendance" are reminders. "Learning" to be a good citizen is just that. Taking a Subject/Life Skill that is "Now and always will be" necessary to be understood in the course of your everyday life and "Teaching" it in a way so we can gauge the level of comprehension. To the best of my knowledge, there is no "Curriculum" or "Standard of Comprehension" in this Subject/Life Skill called "Citizenship/The Law". "How a Bill Becomes a Law" and any of the other "Processes" of how Government works is a more "Specialized" subject matter. "Voting" is a more "Practical" subject. A Candidate/Initiative is proposed. Voters inform themselves of their choices. Voters vote. Majority (Highest Percentage, Over 2/3's, etc.) Rules win. Simple. This may happen 2 or 3 times a year. Knowing the "Electoral College" is what really elects the President and the "Popular Vote" is virtually useless/worthless, is a trivial Game Show question. It only comes up once every 4 years. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Now is the time to explain how the text of this Article/Document ties in to "The Civil-American War" (As opposed to the American Civil War of 1864) & the proposed "Take Over of America". ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The Civil-American War" is the "Un-Declared" War that is most closely associated with the "Peace Movement" & the "Human Rights" cause. It is a battle to incorporate the "Apparent" "First Premise/Source Code/Liberty Within Responsibility" into the real "Rule Book" of America. The limits by which we can proceed in a "Civilized" society are: RULES OF ENGAGEMENT: Rule #1. - No Littering No Fighting No Theft or Destruction of Property As "Littering/Polluting" on a large scale comes full circle & ties into "Destruction of Property", this is a "Closed Set" of "Rules" that represents infringements upon others. The general range of "Fighting" starts with Accosting (Speaking to someone/stranger on the street first/impeding the progress of) to "Battery" (Grabbing someone when you speak to them/Striking), Assault, Rape, Manslaughter & ending at the ultimate; Murder. "Theft" includes: Stealing/Burglary/Robbery & Fraud/ Embezzlement/White Collar Crime; "Taking something that is not yours to take". "Destruction of Property" is "Causing the need of repair/replacement to the property of another, either Personal, Shared or Public. These "Rules" appear to be "The Law" in a nutshell. Rule # 2. -Recognize Law as it is written. Change/Amend/Reform as needed. The choices one makes within the legal limits of the "Rules/Law" are "Moral & Ethical" standards. "Morals" associated with Religious convictions & "Ethics" associated with Business/Fair Play". ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ISSUES: 3 issues that "The Civil-American War" represents are easy to understand & are based on "Non-Compliance" to the "First Premise & the "Rule of Law"". Corporate Responsibility. The Business Vehicle called a "Corporation" has been granted the "Rights" of an "Individual" to facilitate its function as Manufacturer/Producer/Employer of goods and services that used to be done by "Government" in areas regarding the publics "Right of Use". Transportation & Communication are 2 examples. The "Limited Responsibility" afforded to the CEO/Administrators of the "Corporation" acts to "Distance" the "Direct Responsibility" of the CEO/Administrators from having to appear every time a Grievance/Lawsuit against them is brought before a "Court of Law". This is akin to the "President of the United States" having to appear in "Court" every time the "Government" is sued. In both cases, it "Obviously Could" lead to the disruption of "Services Provided" in the "Publics Right of Use" by disrupting managements Communication/Decision Making process. In "No Way" does it relieve the "Corporation" from "Any Liability" that it may cause. "Fine & or imprisonment". The "Corporation" in today's society can be viewed as a "Juggernaut War Machine" indiscriminately gobbling up "Sovereign" businesses through "Hostile Take Over" with "Monopolistic" intent causing sides to be formed by default. "Neutrality" and the "Better Business Bureau" are good ideas, but unrealistic under the circumstances. What people want spelled out in "Legal Language" is: If a "Corporation" is found to "Know About" and then "Cover Up" safety issues in the "Products or Services" they provide and "Death" results due to those safety issues, a "REAL HUMAN(s)" will be "FACING THE FAMILY & FRIENDS in a "Court of Law" while being tried as an alleged "Criminal" for Negligence/Manslaughter/etc. just like an owner/operator or individual would be. The too often, "MONETARY COMPENSATION ONLY WITH NO ADMISSION OF GUILT" settlement scenario does not satisfy the demands of the "First Premise & the "Rule of Law"" The Leader of a Country can be tried for "War Crimes" even though "Protecting the interests of my citizens" is his defense. Corporation. Stockholders? VICTIMLESS CRIME: States can't control "Rights" granted a citizen through "Prohibition" (by prohibiting them). Personal Drug use, Trading for Sex & Gambling are 3 common areas. Regulating (Not in the view of the Public, Operating a Motorized Vehicle, Under the age of 18/21, Zoning, etc.) is the Maximum Limitation allowed. (See American Civil War). DEATH PENALTY/SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES/DETERRENT: If you litter, you can go back & pick-up. If you pollute, you can go back & clean up. If you steal, you can give back & when you destroy you can repair/replace. Some injuries can heal & medical expenses can be paid. Killing is the taking of a life. Life is non replaceable. Even if we clone that individual, the original "Heart" & "Soul" is gone forever. The "Death Penalty" is "NOT" on the books to be a "Deterrent". When we sentence someone to "Death", it is for the "PERSON(s)" they "MURDERED". We even say something like "For the crime of murder in the first degree, the State sentences you to Death by Lethal Injection/electrocution/Firing Squad/etc. We do not say "If it were up to me I'd sentence you to "Life Imprisonment Without the Possibility of Parole" but we are making a sacrifice/example out of you. Sorry for the heavy-handedness" "Special Circumstances" is a "Recent" condition to consider for "Sentencing Purposes". Even if we agree that "By taking someone else's life you must give up yours in return", the problem with the "Death Penalty" is, we have killed "INNOCENT" citizens. We have proven this. And we can't take it back. "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt" may be enough to take away someone's "Liberty" for "Years" to "Life", but the 100% accuracy needed to "Justify" Killing in "My" name or "Your" name simply does not exist. A "Civilized" society does not gamble with "Non Replaceable" lives. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- THE TAKE OVER OF AMERICA The Declaration of "The Civil-American War" is not "Against" the "Current Administration". It is about "Officially Recognizing" the line that has been drawn in the sand that represents the differences in the "United States" over what our "Basic Rights" are. "Rights" are an "Either/Or" proposition. It is about "Legislating" those "Rights" through our only "Official" " Congress & Senate" to be enforced by our "Executive Branch" and "IF" need be, decided by our "Judicial Branch". The "Battle" is the understanding that by accepting (opting in) to the "Rules of Engagement" we have limited our "Course of Action", but we "ARE" no less, trying to oust from a "Position of Power", "Anyone" (Politician/Moron) who is "Against" the successful accomplishment of this goal. Rhetorical Debate is the "Only" way to "Prove" the pen is mightier than the sword. A "Bloodless Coup" (A sudden shift in Power without disruption) is more along the "Gist" of what it means. The outcome of "Life & Death" decisions being made on a daily basis in this Country would "Substantially" be different. The shift of time/money spent NOT violating (Arresting/Prosecuting under current Law) our "Rights" would be "Substantial". ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "SUPPORTING THE WAR EFFORT/SALES PITCH" To say your vote doesn't "Directly Elect" the President is a "Fact". The tally of the "Electoral Votes" does. Frankly, it seems pretty useless/worthless to make people even count that check/ box/line except: "Worth" has a monetary value. If the "Average American" made $30,000 year for a 50-week, 40hr, 8hr a day job, it comes out to roughly 3 cents a minute. A minute is more than enough time to check or write-in a vote for the "Presidency"(most choices usually have a "vice" attached to them). "Use" has a value. While your "Ballot" vote doesn't "Directly Elect" the President, it shows who you "Supported". This "Support" can be gauged on a percentage scale in relation to all the "Candidates". Your "Ballot" vote is also "Done in Secret". Nobody knows if you "Really" voted for whom you said you would. You can write-in A-b-l-e/a-d-a-m-z to show your "Support", no one need ever know & "It can't affect the outcome of the election", especially if you've voted for some "Crazy Nut/Politician". In this age of "The Billionaire", isn't it amazing the "Real" power and value "3 Lincoln Head Pennies" still hold? They may not buy you a pack of "Life Savers" anymore but they certainly can go a long way toward "Buying" the "Forum" for a more level "Playing Field" under the "Rules/Law". If you were to give 3 cents to your "Political Party", they wouldn't spend the time or effort to hold their hand out for it. If you give 3 cents to Able adamz, you would be told, "Save your money, it isn't needed. (Campaign Reform?) If you give the "Value", "in 3 cents/sense of your time", by writing in "Able adamz", on your "American Ballot", "This next Election", you have "Officially Recognized" the "Civil-American War" by showing your "Support". "Using" your Useless, Worthless, Popular, Throw Away Ballot vote in this fashion will bring a "Focus" to "Issues" which admittedly, shouldn't be expected to "Shut Down" the daily Administrative Responsibilities in carrying out the functions of "Enforcing the Law" the way it is written, but The "Urgency" of this Article/Document could be viewed as "Timeless" since "This Next Election" is always "Just around the Corner"' but "Timeless" it is not. "When", not "If", the "Electoral College" process of selecting the President is abandoned in favor of "Direct Vote", you will "Never Again" have the opportunity to "Use" your vote (For a Leader selected from Political Party choice through Proxy- see Politician) to "Focus" on unresolved "Issues" that lie in the "Source Code" of our "American Program". ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PERSPECTIVE The above "Grievances" seem to come with a "Resolution" included or implied. It is "Disjointed at times. All loose ends have not been tied together. Forward-looking statements are minimal. The "forum" for "Issues" means "Web Site" for information and stricter "Moderators" in T.V./College Rhetorical Debate. Some sentences could be better understood if they were supported by a paragraph and that paragraph by a full chapter. The use of "Without Argument", "Fact", "Prove", "Program", "Definition", "History tells us", etc. can all be argued. The reference to "Law" as a "Software Program was conveyed, but the difference between "First Premise" and "Source Code" need more clarity. Over all it could be understood by your average 12 year old with little help. One person can only "Paint a Picture" with words to try and make him understood. ----------------------------------------------------------------- SIGNED: Able adamz Leader of the Civil-American War-By Default 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com.

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fyi -- possible problem with mailman
by Chuq Von Rospach 28 Oct '00

28 Oct '00

haven't had a chance to debug this, but.. It looks like mailman (b6) has a problem if it's processing the queue and it can't connect to it's SMTP host. On the system I just upgraded, my SMTP would start rejecting messages because of load. And I'm seeing lots of zero length files come in because of it. They seem to be related. I'll sniff more details when I get a chance, but I'm definitely seeing a rash of zero length files being sent to (as far as I can tell) the admin of the list, and it seems to be tied to this. I think... -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Be just, and fear not.

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b6, postfix/qrunner super disaster
by Christopher Kolar 27 Oct '00

27 Oct '00

Hi all. I know that one man's disaster is another man's chuckle at an incompetent amateur system administrator, but here goes. I am running 2b6 under Mandrake 7.1 using postfix as an MTA. Last Thursday I posted a note to a small mail list but the note never showed up. I posted to the users list on that matter. First off I addressed the locking problem and deleted the locks/ files. That did not solve the problem, so I then looked at the smtp log and saw that Mm was trying to send the message, but was getting a return of: host not found when trying to send the 20 copies of the message. I messed around with it, and saw qrunner trying to resend the message every minute, and figured that it must be a temporary DNS problem with my ISP and left it alone. During this process I monitored both the normal qrunner cron operations and also tried to manually push the queue by evoking the qrunner command line that is found in the cron file. Then I left for four days in San Francisco. When I got back I discovered that I had 20 new sworn enemies. Sunday morning, as if by magic, the mail actually got delivered, 1400 copies of it. Now I realize that I may have done something really stupid along the way, but I also think that it may be worthwhile to figure out what happened. I am wondering if qrunner got the error message and kept the item in qfiles, but postfix also deferred delivery of the message and kept it in the MTA mqueue -- growing by one copy a minute until the server was able to successfully find the recipients' hosts. If anyone would like to do some forensics on this I would be happy to share log file data, both from Mailman and the regular mail log. Thanks in advance for thinking about this problem and what the cause of it may have been. --chris -- /////\\\\\/////\\\\\ Christopher G. Kolar Director, Department of Instructional Technology Aurora University, Aurora, Illinois ckolar(a)admin.aurora.edu -- www.aurora.edu/~ckolar [PGP Public Key ID: 0xC6492C72]

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bug in confirmation mesaage headers
by Fil 27 Oct '00

27 Oct '00

A bug : the confirmation message (aka verify.txt) headers are bad in 2.0b6 List-Subscribe: <../listinfo/listname>, ... List-Unsubscribe: <../listinfo/listname>, ...

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(no subject)
by Moneymaker67＠aol.com 27 Oct '00

27 Oct '00

HI,WHAT'S UP ? WITH JON ? THINK FUZZY NAVELS ARE ROYALTIES THEY ARE SO GOOD LIKE LYRICS THEY ARE SO EASY .IT BRINGS LOTS OF LUCK , LOTS OF GOOD AND IT DON'T MATTER TO ME ANYMORE WHAT GOES ON I'M WELL KNOWN NOW ,GUESS I'LL BE SOMEBODY BECAUSE I NEVER GAVE UP , I'VE COME TO FAR TO GIVE UP NOW . WELL YOU TAKE CARE I'M BETTER THAN I'VE EVER BEEN , I FEEL NOTHING ANYMORE. GUESS WRITTING HAS THAT EFFECT ON SOMEONE. SEFFNERPLUM JON LORD HELLO

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htdig indexing
by Nigel Metheringham 26 Oct '00

26 Oct '00

I've been playing with Richard's htdig indexing patches for mailman (they are in the patches set for 2.0beta6 on sourceforge). I've finally got it working to my satisfaction just as I'm about to be away for a bit so I am rushing this out now.... I have not looked at 2.0rc1 so I don't know whether the indexer patches went into that. The enclosed patch makes the following changes:- 1. Turns off the index/noindex additions to the TOC files since they are already marked with the META tags as noindex and the combination appeared to be confusing htdig and making the indexes less useful. 2. Changes the URLs used to match the web urls for the list (previously tended to use the machine hostname instead). You can see the effect at http://www.exim.org/pipermail/exim-users/ [which is an invitation for it to stop working] Patch attached is relative to Richard's 2 patches - ie apply both of his ones *first*. Nigel. [ - Opinions expressed are personal and may not be shared by VData - ] [ Nigel Metheringham Nigel.Metheringham(a)VData.co.uk ] [ Phone: +44 1423 850000 Fax +44 1423 858866 ]

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Posts by "Posters" not archived
by Jason Richey 25 Oct '00

25 Oct '00

Is this the regular (desired) behaviour? When someone who is listed as a "Poster" posts to a list, it is not archived. I am running 2.0beta2. I apologize if this has already been addressed. -- "Jason C. Richey" <jasonr(a)aristotle.bomis.com>

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