Mailman 3 June 2001 - Mailman-Developers

Re: Mailman-Developers digest, Vol 1 #917 - 3 msgs
by Samuel 25 Jun '01

25 Jun '01

unsubscribe ----- Original Message ----- From: <mailman-developers-request(a)python.org> To: <mailman-developers(a)python.org> Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 6:01 PM Subject: Mailman-Developers digest, Vol 1 #917 - 3 msgs > Send Mailman-Developers mailing list submissions to > mailman-developers(a)python.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > mailman-developers-request(a)python.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > mailman-developers-admin(a)python.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Mailman-Developers digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. qrunner -- problem with huge mail messages (Dirko van Schalkwyk) > 2. HTML Issue (James Dinan) > 3. Re: HTML Issue (Thomas Wouters) > > --__--__-- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:35:26 +0200 > From: Dirko van Schalkwyk <dvschalk(a)ing.sun.ac.za> > Reply-To: dvschalk(a)ing.sun.ac.za > To: mailman-developers(a)python.org > Subject: [Mailman-Developers] qrunner -- problem with huge mail messages > > Hi > > It is 6:02 AM Sat. and I'm fairly fed-up. > > I have the following situation : > > Mailman 2.0.5 > Python 2.0 > MTA : postfix > > I set Mailman up, created a test list and played with it for a while. > Then I send it a big "whopper" 5MB e-mail. I watched the logs and saw > postfix running the wrapper. The cron started qrunner and all hell broke > lose (over dramatizing a bit). It started running at 100% CPU, where it > stayed until I killed it. The message was queued in $prefix/qfiles, it > and its little .db file. I had to remove those as well as the locks in > $prefix/locks before I could successfully use the list again. > > So I thought, "well maybe the pipermail thingy can't handle the huge > mime thingies I'm sending it". So I send a smaller attachment <150kb. > Things went fine (except for the ugly html page:) ) Send it a 1MB > attachment. qrunner started spinning it's wheels again. Had to seek and > destroy again. > > So I replaced pipermail with MHonArc (With PUBLIC_EXTERNAL_ARCHIVER , > PRIVATE_EXTERNAL_ARCHIVER , PUBLIC_ARCHIVE_URL in mm_cfg.py and the > appropriate thingies in httpd.conf). Small messages worked fine. Big > whoppers = no joy i.e. still the same with big messages. So at least it > is not the archiving bit that messes up. > > So I upgraded my Python ;) Ermm, to version 2.0. Still the same. > > Has anyone had the same problem? Can anyone confirm this as a bug by > sending a 2MB file to a 2.0.5 testlist? > > How do I do a trace in Python? (i.e. it is as familiar to me as the > bacteria in my stomach (I runs on my machine and there endeth the > relationship)) > > Any pointers? Anything? I need to get this list running before monday > (yes this is for a business). Please!!!?? > > Sorry if this e-mail was not formal enough, the 48 hours strait is > getting to me. > > Greets > > Dirko > > Lab E352 > E&E Engineering > Univ. of Stellenbosch > South Africa > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 2 > From: "James Dinan" <james(a)gilbertwalker.com> > To: <mailman-developers(a)python.org> > Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 10:49:27 -0700 > Subject: [Mailman-Developers] HTML Issue > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C0FD64.8168A650 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > I posted this message to mailman-users, and then the more I was thinking = > about it, the more I began to think this was a question for developers. = > Please tell me what you think: > > I am running Mailman 2.0.1 on Redhat 6.2 and I am having difficulty with = > the Subscribe Results Page (/mailman/subscribe/listname). More = > specifically, I have edited the HTML and whenever I view the page, = > mailman appears to be prepending the following to the source: > > <HTML> > <HEAD> > </HEAD> > <BODY > <BODY bgcolor=3D"#ffffff"> > > which I'm sure you can imagine is wreaking havoc on the rest of my HTML. = > Has anyone else had this problem, or is this fixed in future releases? = > Since I am not an admin on the server I am configuring it will be = > difficult (Redhat installs mailman in /var/mailman) to recompile = > mailman. > > I have just checked = > http://mail.python.org/mailman/subscribe/mailman-users and you can see = > for yourself that this is also happening with the version of mailman = > that serves this list. > > - jim dinan. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > James Dinan <james(a)gilbertwalker.com> > Gilbert Walker Group: Lenox, MA U.S.A > Available: http://www.gilbertwalker.com > > ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C0FD64.8168A650 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> > <HTML><HEAD> > <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = > http-equiv=3DContent-Type> > <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2920.0" name=3DGENERATOR> > <STYLE></STYLE> > </HEAD> > <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I posted this message to mailman-users, = > and then=20 > the more I was thinking about it, the more I began to think this was a = > question=20 > for developers.  Please tell me what you think:</FONT></DIV> > <DIV> </DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am running Mailman 2.0.1 on Redhat = > 6.2 and I am=20 > having difficulty with the Subscribe Results Page=20 > (/mailman/subscribe/listname).  More specifically, I have edited = > the HTML=20 > and whenever I view the page, mailman appears to be prepending the = > following to=20 > the source:</FONT></DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20 > size=3D2><BR><HTML><BR><HEAD><BR></HEAD><BR><BODY<BR= > ><BODY=20 > bgcolor=3D"#ffffff"></FONT></DIV> > <DIV> </DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>which I'm sure you can imagine is = > wreaking havoc on=20 > the rest of my HTML.  Has anyone else had this problem, or is this = > fixed in=20 > future releases?  Since I am not an admin on the server I am = > configuring it=20 > will be difficult (Redhat installs mailman in /var/mailman) to recompile = > > mailman.</FONT></DIV> > <DIV> </DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have just checked <A=20 > href=3D"http://mail.python.org/mailman/subscribe/mailman-users">http://ma= > il.python.org/mailman/subscribe/mailman-users</A> and=20 > you can see for yourself that this is also happening with the version of = > mailman=20 > that serves this list.</FONT></DIV> > <DIV> </DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- jim dinan.</FONT></DIV> > <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20 > size=3D2>----------------------------------------------------------------= > -------<BR>James=20 > Dinan <<A=20 > href=3D"mailto:james@gilbertwalker.com">james(a)gilbertwalker.com</A>><B= > R>Gilbert=20 > Walker Group: Lenox, MA  U.S.A<BR>Available:  <A=20 > href=3D"http://www.gilbertwalker.com">http://www.gilbertwalker.com</A></F= > ONT></FONT></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML> > > ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C0FD64.8168A650-- > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 17:47:58 +0200 > From: Thomas Wouters <thomas(a)xs4all.net> > To: James Dinan <james(a)gilbertwalker.com> > Cc: mailman-developers(a)python.org > Subject: Re: [Mailman-Developers] HTML Issue > > On Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 10:49:27AM -0700, James Dinan wrote: > > > I posted this message to mailman-users, and then the more I was thinking > > about it, the more I began to think this was a question for developers. > > Please tell me what you think: > > > I am running Mailman 2.0.1 on Redhat 6.2 and I am having difficulty with > > the Subscribe Results Page (/mailman/subscribe/listname). More > > specifically, I have edited the HTML and whenever I view the page, mailman > > appears to be prepending the following to the source: > > > > <HTML> > > <HEAD> > > </HEAD> > > <BODY > > <BODY bgcolor="#ffffff"> > > Yes. This is an open bug, and an old one. It still requires a Pronouncement > from Barry. The problem is that Mailman creates a HTMLgen Document instead > of a HeadlessDocument, for the list page. From the top of my head the fix is > to change > > doc = Document() > > into > > doc = HeadlessDocument() > > in Mailman/Cgi/listinfo.py, function listinfo_overview(). I believe Barry > is reluctant to fix it because of possible breakage (people might have made > template files with the (Headfull)Document in mind.) Barry ? :) > > -- > Thomas Wouters <thomas(a)xs4all.net> > > Hi! I'm a .signature virus! copy me into your .signature file to help me spread! > > > > --__--__-- > > _______________________________________________ > Mailman-Developers mailing list > Mailman-Developers(a)python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers > > > End of Mailman-Developers Digest >

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qrunner -- problem with huge mail messages
by Dirko van Schalkwyk 25 Jun '01

25 Jun '01

Hi It is 6:02 AM Sat. and I'm fairly fed-up. I have the following situation : Mailman 2.0.5 Python 2.0 MTA : postfix I set Mailman up, created a test list and played with it for a while. Then I send it a big "whopper" 5MB e-mail. I watched the logs and saw postfix running the wrapper. The cron started qrunner and all hell broke lose (over dramatizing a bit). It started running at 100% CPU, where it stayed until I killed it. The message was queued in $prefix/qfiles, it and its little .db file. I had to remove those as well as the locks in $prefix/locks before I could successfully use the list again. So I thought, "well maybe the pipermail thingy can't handle the huge mime thingies I'm sending it". So I send a smaller attachment <150kb. Things went fine (except for the ugly html page:) ) Send it a 1MB attachment. qrunner started spinning it's wheels again. Had to seek and destroy again. So I replaced pipermail with MHonArc (With PUBLIC_EXTERNAL_ARCHIVER , PRIVATE_EXTERNAL_ARCHIVER , PUBLIC_ARCHIVE_URL in mm_cfg.py and the appropriate thingies in httpd.conf). Small messages worked fine. Big whoppers = no joy i.e. still the same with big messages. So at least it is not the archiving bit that messes up. So I upgraded my Python ;) Ermm, to version 2.0. Still the same. Has anyone had the same problem? Can anyone confirm this as a bug by sending a 2MB file to a 2.0.5 testlist? How do I do a trace in Python? (i.e. it is as familiar to me as the bacteria in my stomach (I runs on my machine and there endeth the relationship)) Any pointers? Anything? I need to get this list running before monday (yes this is for a business). Please!!!?? Sorry if this e-mail was not formal enough, the 48 hours strait is getting to me. Greets Dirko Lab E352 E&E Engineering Univ. of Stellenbosch South Africa

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23 Jun '01

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Splitting -owner and -admin handling
by J C Lawrence 23 Jun '01

23 Jun '01

On Sat, 23 Jun 2001 10:51:47 +0200 Thomas Wouters <thomas(a)xs4all.net> wrote: > No.... Currently, the Sender and Return-Path headers (or the 'From > ' header, if you wish) get set to list-admin, not > list-bounce. Correct. I'm suggesting that be changed. > Changing it to list-bounce will screw up every one of my > mailman-list-filters, and I'm not the only one doing that ;P Might I suggest that List-ID: is a far better field to filter on, asides from actually being intended for that purpose? -- J C Lawrence claw(a)kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ The pressure to survive and rhetoric may make strange bedfellows

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Mailman queue design problem?
by Carson Gaspar 23 Jun '01

23 Jun '01

As I understand it, mailman operates by receiving mail to one of 3 addresses (list, list-request, list-admin), flagging the message as a post, request, or bounce/admin message, and adding it to qfiles. qrunner then processes qfiles and handles everything. This doesn't work for large lists. It has 2 major problems: - large numbers of bounces prevent list mail and list requests from being processed - a flat directory structure is a performance nightmare on non-btree dir filesystems To be specific, the firewalls mailing list had accumulated over 20,000 bounces in qfiles, which was preventing anything from getting done, and making the machine _very_ unhappy. So I recommend a quick fix of splitting the queue into 3 parts, and a medium term fix of adopting one of the tiered directory structures (postfix, new sendmail, etc.). -- Carson Gaspar - carson(a)taltos.org Queen trapped in a butch body

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Splitting -owner and -admin handling
by barry＠digicool.com 23 Jun '01

23 Jun '01

Mail destined for the -owner and -admin addresses for a list are handled differently because -admin mail flows through the bounce detector, and only if that fails is it forwarded on to the list owners. Mail for -owner goes directly to the list owners. For historical reasons, Mailman conflates these two addresses by having the same script (mailowner) deal with both. In MM2.0.5, I parsed the incoming message to see if it was destined for -admin or -owner, and I added an appropriate bit message metadata before queuing the message. In MM2.1, I don't parse the message in mailowner. This has the advantage of reducing the amount of time the MTA program has to consume, which I think is a good thing. The problem is that the determination of -owner vs. -admin doesn't happen until the qrunner processes the message. If I want to split bounce processing into a separate queue, the best place to do this is as early as possible, i.e. in the MTA program script. There are two options: 1) Parse the message in mailowner, or at the very least, look for the To: field to see if it was destined for -owner or -admin, and then put the message in the proper queue. We can mitigate the parsing costs by storing the message as a pickle instead of plain text, so the qrunner slurping messages out of the queue doesn't need to reparse it. Pros: backwards compatibility with existing alias files. Cons: mailowner has to do more work, has a higher opportunity for uncaught exceptions (exposed as MTA bounces), and can be fooled by Bcc's. 2) Add a new script, maybe called `mailadmin' which gets associated only with -admin messages. The mailowner script would thus only accept messages for -owner. Pros: keeps things simple, and splits bounce processing into a separate queue early on, with minimal chance of problems. Cons: breaks backwards compatibility with existing alias files, since they'd have to be changed to point the -admin addresses at mailadmin instead of what they currently point to (mailowner). Mitigate this with the auto-alias-file regeneration scripts already in Mailman (i.e. bin/genaliases). Thoughts? Preferences? Other suggestions? -Barry

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Splitting -owner and -admin handling
by Dan Mick 22 Jun '01

22 Jun '01

I like 2) better, as anything that helps bounce processing be more efficient is a big win for low-end machines, especially if it can avoid the relatively-huge Python startup time. > Mail destined for the -owner and -admin addresses for a list are > handled differently because -admin mail flows through the bounce > detector, and only if that fails is it forwarded on to the list > owners. Mail for -owner goes directly to the list owners. > > For historical reasons, Mailman conflates these two addresses by > having the same script (mailowner) deal with both. In MM2.0.5, I > parsed the incoming message to see if it was destined for -admin or > -owner, and I added an appropriate bit message metadata before queuing > the message. > > In MM2.1, I don't parse the message in mailowner. This has the > advantage of reducing the amount of time the MTA program has to > consume, which I think is a good thing. The problem is that the > determination of -owner vs. -admin doesn't happen until the qrunner > processes the message. If I want to split bounce processing into a > separate queue, the best place to do this is as early as possible, > i.e. in the MTA program script. > > There are two options: > > 1) Parse the message in mailowner, or at the very least, look for the > To: field to see if it was destined for -owner or -admin, and then > put the message in the proper queue. We can mitigate the parsing > costs by storing the message as a pickle instead of plain text, so > the qrunner slurping messages out of the queue doesn't need to > reparse it. Pros: backwards compatibility with existing alias > files. Cons: mailowner has to do more work, has a higher > opportunity for uncaught exceptions (exposed as MTA bounces), and > can be fooled by Bcc's. > > 2) Add a new script, maybe called `mailadmin' which gets associated > only with -admin messages. The mailowner script would thus only > accept messages for -owner. Pros: keeps things simple, and splits > bounce processing into a separate queue early on, with minimal > chance of problems. Cons: breaks backwards compatibility with > existing alias files, since they'd have to be changed to point the > -admin addresses at mailadmin instead of what they currently point > to (mailowner). Mitigate this with the auto-alias-file > regeneration scripts already in Mailman (i.e. bin/genaliases). > > Thoughts? Preferences? Other suggestions? > > -Barry > > _______________________________________________ > Mailman-Developers mailing list > Mailman-Developers(a)python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers

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Two versions on the same host
by Vizi Szilard 22 Jun '01

22 Jun '01

Hy Everyone, Previosly I asked Barry, but he could not answer yet. I have installed to my machine the latest version from the CVS beside to the perfectly working 2.0.5. I want to play with the newest version, but I do not want to bust up the working version. So I used the following options in the configure: ./configure --prefix=/home/mailman2 --with-username=mailman2 --with-groupname= mailman2 --with-cgi-gid=233 --with-mail-gid=12 In the Apache conf for the ScriptAlias I gave /mailman2 since /mailman is for the version 2.0.5. I changed the crontab to prevent 2 different versions running in the same time. Mailman in the new directory working almost perfectly, but when I click to a link the url would be like this (eg. in the listinfo page): http://tatooin.sol.vein.hu/mailman/admin But it have to be like this for the proper working: http://tatooin.sol.vein.hu/mailman2/admin So I could not play with the beta version. Any suggestion how can I solve this problem? (You can take a look at this problem in the above URLs, if our net is working. The bad weathers ruined our network early on this week.) Bye,. Szilard Vizi ------------- mailto:vizisz@freemail.hu UIN:10676592

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] (no subject)
by J C Lawrence 21 Jun '01

21 Jun '01

On Wed, 20 Jun 2001 08:20:03 -0700 Aluo Nowu <etoffi(a)users.sourceforge.net> wrote: > wouldn't it be just great if Mailman lists could tell you what > messages you have bounced (and provide a way to get them of course > =P), just like ezmlm? Sure. > <foobar-return-500-lazyman=mailserver.org(a)lists.baz.quux> Message numbers are the relatively uninteresting case as they are an arbitrary value that Mailman may not (usually doesn't) actually know at the time of broadcast, and which further, doesn't actually apply or necessarily exist for those using external archivers. Message-IDs would be a better and more guaranteed portable route and in the general case don't need to be embedded as you can already find them in the bounce. -- J C Lawrence claw(a)kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ The pressure to survive and rhetoric may make strange bedfellows

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(no subject)
by Aluo Nowu 20 Jun '01

20 Jun '01

From: etoffi jones <etoffi(a)bigfoot.com> To: mailman-developers(a)python.org Reply-To: etoffi(a)bigfoot.com Organization: my company Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 08:12:13 Subject: bounce with me X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Cc: etoffi jones <etoffi(a)softhome.net> X-Mailer: Foobar 1.0 (Foobar Enterprises Inc Ltd Pty GmbH) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" please keep me on cc: wouldn't it be just great if Mailman lists could tell you what messages you have bounced (and provide a way to get them of course =P), just like ezmlm? wouldn't it? for example, the Return-Path could be modified like so: <foobar-return-500-lazyman=mailserver.org(a)lists.baz.quux> (somebody should create a quux tld) 1) list name 2) 'return' 3) msg num 4) email addr (with = instead of @) if any experts might be able to tell me that this is not to much to implement, i might be obliged to look into it myself. hehe. -or- for the ones where the latter doesnt apply, is this a good idea? has there been any problems with this type of feature that you are aware of? -- etoffi <http://oluworld.sourceforge.net/>

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