Hi Kẏra,
Some additional answers, inline below. Most of your questions relate to the web archiver, and Nico has answered some of those. In order to get all the questions and answers in the same place (so people can see which questions aren’t yet answered here), I’ve rolled Nico’s comments into this reply.
On 7 Oct 2013, at 03:38, Kẏra <kxra(a)riseup.net> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> My name is Kẏra and I am the technology director of the Free Culture
> Foundation as well as a campaigns organizer for the Free Software
> Foundation and we're in need up upgrading our mailing lists to a more
> web-friendly system. I'm doing research on newer list severs to see how
> they compare. So far Groupserver seems to provide everything, but if
> Mailman 3 is going to be released soon, we'd like to consider that as well.
>
> I'm making a comparison chart and wanted to ask about Mailman 3 (and
> Postorius) features. Answers to any and all of the following with regards
> to Mailman 3 + Postorius would be super helpful:
>
> Can you post from the web interface?
yes
> Is there file upload support?
yes
> Is there now a search feature? Can it search multiple lists?
yes, yes
> Are there web feeds (atom or rss)? Generated from lists? searches? threads?
> files?
Nico’s plugin API seems to be offering support for this.
> Are posts and administration integrated into the web interface?
I think that site and list administration are not part of the hyperkitty
> Can you specify a posting rate restriction?
I don’t know.
> Is full css customization for the web interface supported?
> Is css customization for the email interface supported?
Hyperkitty supports "themes". I’m guessing you’ll be able to roll your own.
> Is there site-side logging? (as opposed to server side)
Logging (apart from web accesses) would be a Mailman responsibility. I’m not sure what you mean by "site-side", but perhaps you’re after remote reporting on a domain of yours hosted a third party at a remote site. Again, that’s possible. It could be provided through a web interface, or some other means.
> Is there a link to the post in the web interface in the footer of messages?
That’ll require co-operation between Mailman and the web archive. But, if the web archive URL is predictable, then I think Mailman will be able to do this.
> Now that users are more than just email addresses, can you request to
> contact a list member?
Do you mean from their profile page, or from a list of members?
> Can users have multiple email addresses?
Yes, that’s a part of users being more than just email addresses.
> Are there profile pages where you can see a summary of their latest posts?
yes
> Can the web interface hide quoted text?
yes
> Are usage statistics provided?
The Hyperkitty change log for 0.1 alpha says "show basic list info and metrics". Certainly the Mailman 2 logs provide enough information from which useful usage stats could be derived. If Hyperkitty doesn’t provide the stats that you want, you’ll likely be able to get them from the log files.
> Thanks!
>
> Also, did Mailman 2 already support LMTP and virtual domains or are those
> new?
They’re new. Mailman 2 did have partial support of virtual domains, but there was a restriction whereby no two domains could have a list with the same name: so I can’t imagine that this would be useful.
>
> Best,
> Kẏra
>
> --
> Board of Directors, Free Culture Foundation: www.freeculture.org
> Campaigns Organizer, Free Software Foundation: www.fsf.org
>
> Blog: http://kxra.info - StatusNet Microblog: http://identi.ca/kxra
> Email: kxra(a)freeculture.org - SMS: +1.617.340.3661
> Jabber/XMPP: kxra(a)riseup.net - IRC: kxra @freenode @oftc @indymedia
> _______________________________________________
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>
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--
Ian Eiloart
Postmaster, University of Sussex
+44 (0) 1273 87-3148
On Sep 20, 2013, at 12:46 PM, Aurelien Bompard wrote:
>What do you think? Bad timing? Any existing work I'm missing?
I think it's a *great* idea.
No, perfect timing.
Not that I know of! :)
What we've said in the past is that we weren't going to promise conversion
scripts from 2.1 to 3.0, partly because that work was incomplete, but also
because we wanted to caution users not to just blindly upgrade as soon as 3.0
is released. But I think having a reliable, well-tested, non-destructive
option to upgrade would be wonderful, especially because I fully hope that a
site could run 2.1 and 3.0 together for a while.
Any help you need, let me know.
(I've been ridiculously swamped at work these past few weeks. Apologies for
being rather quiet lately. I hope that'll improve in the next couple of
weeks.)
Cheers,
-Barry
FYI, I will be releasing 2.1.16rc1 in a few days with a target of a
final release in early September.
I believe the release will be very solid and stable. The main purpose of
the candidate release is to expose any i18n changes so that translators
can submit any updates and get them in the final release. There are a
few new features, contributed programs, i18n changes and bug fixes, all
of which will be announced when the candidate is released.
--
Mark Sapiro <mark(a)msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
Stephen, Florian and I had a nice discussion at the GSoC Mentor Summit
about what's left before we can release a beta of the entire Mailman
Suite (i.e. Mailman core, Postorius and Hyperkitty packaged together).
We're getting close! In fact, close enough that I'm going to suggest
that we set a beta release target date of Dec 1st.
I know we had a list of 5 things... but for some reason I can't
remember all of them. Florian, Stephen, can you chime in?
1. Need a Postorius interface for associating multiple email addresses
with a single account. This is probably going to require either an
email verification, so we might want to have that as part Mailman Core
rather than doing it directly in Postorius. Short term, I don't care
how it's done as long as it verifies that the user actually has access
to the addresses they link together.
2. Postorius & Hyperkitty need a bit more work on the authentication
management. Florian indicated that he's looking for some code review
for the persona integration and that we'd really like a single sign on
solution for postorius/hyperkitty to work together seamlessly.
3. We need some nice install scripts or packaging work so that
installing Mailman Suite is easy. Probably for beta purposes this can
just be a shell script, but we also talked about doing a meta "Mailman
Suite" PyPI package and maybe doing a .deb or .rpm as proof of concept.
4. ??
5. ??
Hopefully Florian and Stephen have better memories than I and can fill
those in. Everyone else: anything you know that needs to happen before
we can get a Mailman Suite beta out?
Terri
Hello,
Having read the archives, I see that (at least 6 of) you are aware of
DMARC, or as I like to call it YAPFS. (Yet Another Panacea For Spam)
:-)
Earlier this year Mark asked me to run by MM-Dev a patch that Phil
Pennock and I collaborated on. Mark, thank you for your valuable
feedback, I have addressed all but 1 of those issues.
Phil's and my take is that mailing lists, like MTAs, have no business
modifying the From header; nor should mailing lists accept mail that
they knowingly can't reflect. To that end, we have added support for
testing the From domain for a DMARC p=reject policy, and if it exists,
allowing lists to Accept/Hold/Reject/Discard the message.
Here is the LP diff for your perusal:
http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~jimpop/mailman/dmarc-reject/revision/1379?reme…
I will soon be porting this to 3.0, and I will return here for input
on that as well.
Thank you everyone for your valued opinions,
-Jim P.
Hey all,
I first thought about opening a bug for this, but I think it needs a
small discussion first.
In Mailman3 the message templates are stored on disk (welcome.txt,
footer-generic.txt, ...)
However, unless I missed something, there is no hint about the encoding
of those files.
As a result, when I try the decorate() function (from
mailman.handlers.decorate) on a non-ascii file, it crashes with a
classic UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte [...].
Note: if the file contains no string to replace (like $fqdn_listname),
it is passed through unchanged and it works.
So how should we deal with this? I think that the TemplateLoader in
mailman.app.templates should return unicode strings, because that's the
closest to the moment when files are read, and unicode conversion should
happen on the "external borders" of the application. Thus the
TemplateLoader's get() method seems to be the right place.
I see two options:
- We require that all template files are stored in either ascii or
utf-8. That's the easiest way to go, and we just decode the text after
getting the file.
- We use the fact that our Language entities contain encoding values.
When the template is loaded from an internal URL containing the
language, we add the corresponding encoding to the result metadata (to
be retrieved with the info() method) and use that to decode the
contents. This means that templates in non-localized directories still
have to be ascii-only, and the same goes for templates retrieved from
non-internal URLs (not starting with mailman://). It's more complex but
it may seem more natural to the administrator, since he won't have to
force UTF-8 encoding when editing a file. We must also think of not
making it too hard for Postorius, which will probably only get UTF-8
posted from the webpage (since it's always displayed in UTF-8 IIRC).
I would vote for the easy way for just requiring UTF-8 encoding, but I'd
like to hear your thoughts on this.
Thanks,
Aurélien
--
http://aurelien.bompard.org ~~~~~~ xmpp:aurelien@bompard.org
Tell me and I will forget. Show me and I will remember. Involve me and
I will understand. -- Chinese proverb
On 10/16/2013 10:44 AM, Andrew Hodgson wrote:
>
> Thanks for this. All working fine this end. Only thing I can see is the version text still says that it is running RC3.
and On 10/16/2013 07:21 PM, Christopher Schulte wrote:
> Hi Mark, I pulled down
>
> http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mailman/mailman-2.1.16.tgz
>
> and my list web interface shows version 2.1.16rc3. Maybe someone
> forgot to bump Version.py ?
Actually, it's a bit more tangled than that. For those keeping score at
home, I have a script that I use to 1) bump the version 2) tag the
release and 3) package the tarball. The issue is step 1) bumps the
version, but doesn't commit, then step 2) tags the latest (prior) commit
and then commits, and step 3) packages the tagged version which doesn't
have the bump. Sometimes I remember to commit between steps 1) and 2),
and sometimes I don't.
I have updated the script to commit after the bump in step 1) which will
avoid this in the future I hope.
I have replaced the tarballs at the download sites:
https://launchpad.net/mailman/2.1/http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mailman/https://sourceforge.net/projects/mailman/
with ones that have the correct version. This is the only difference
between the new tarballs and the prior ones. If you downloaded one
earlier and care about the displayed version, you can either download a
new one or apply the attached Version.py.patch.
--
Mark Sapiro <mark(a)msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
On 10/16/2013 08:31 AM, Andrew Hodgson wrote:
>
> Thanks for the good release as always. Sorry to ask this, but will your Htdig integration patch for 2.1.15 also work on 2.1.16, or are the differences too great for the patch to apply successfully?
The patch for 2.1.16 is now there at
<http://www.msapiro.net/mm/index_htdig.patch.2.1.16>. There were only a
few minor line number changes between that and the 2.1.15 patch.
--
Mark Sapiro <mark(a)msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
Hi, Kẏra!
Thank you for your interest in Mailman 3! I'm sure I speak for all
the developers in saying that we are honored!
That said, what follows is the well-informed (I believe ;-) but
individual opinion of one developer, complicated by the fact that
Mailman development is quite decentralized because the web admin and
archive management interfaces have been hived off into separate
projects, as Nico points out.
I'm not sure everybody will be pleased by my next few remarks, either.
If Groupserver meets all your requirements and is stable, I'd have to
say that's the odds-on favorite. Mailman 3 core (the user and list
database manager, and mail delivery server) is in late beta at this
point, and very usable. A few sites are using it in production,
though I have no idea how mission-critical those lists are.
However, the web interfaces (Postorius for admin and HyperKitty for
archives) are still in flux, and recent development activity in
Mailman core has been more focused on security issues (verification
and re-signing of digitally-signed posts, refactored REST interface to
improve authentication). Finally, Mailman 3 is still really about
*mail*. It's not web-centric, although web access is dramatically
improved where the features have been implemented.
All that said, Barry still openly admits he wants Mailman 3 to "kill
web fora" and secretly hankers after Linux-style World Domination. It
might be worth waiting for. :-)
Also, regarding the state of Postorius and HyperKitty you should
definitely contact their developers. Most of them do hang out here on
mailman-developers, but there hasn't been a lot of traffic about
progress recently. I suppose they have their own channels of
communication.
You wrote:
> Are posts and administration integrated into the web interface?
There is a Messaging Interface (aka MI) being developed by the Systers
(as an alternative to Postorius/Hyperkitty) which provides some
administration features, access to the archives, and reading and
posting support. It is clearly intended to be used internally to an
organization rather than as a way to support Mailman's traditional
constituency of open subscription, (nearly) open post public lists.
(Of course Mailman has been adapted to other kinds of lists such as
anonymized lists, fully personalized lists, and announce lists, but it
typically needs a lot of external support for applications like CRM.)
> Can you specify a posting rate restriction?
What do you mean? (Presently the answer is "no", but if you mean
preventing users from posting more than N times in a day or something
like that it would be easy to add.)
> Is full css customization for the web interface supported?
> Is css customization for the email interface supported?
Again, what do you mean by this? Of course you can substitute your
own CSS for that distributed by Postorius or HyperKitty in the web
interfaces. There is no CSS in the email interface AIUI -- the email
interface is whatever email program the user has chosen. I'm pretty
sure that's not the question you're asking, though. ??
> Is there site-side logging? (as opposed to server side)
What do you mean by "site" and "server"? Sites have to be served.
> Is there a link to the post in the web interface in the footer of
> messages?
If you want one and are using an archive manager that supports it,
it's customizable. (I believe HyperKitty does support that.) The
Systers' MI assumes a web-based interface, so no link needed.
> Now that users are more than just email addresses, can you request to
> contact a list member?
Not implemented as far as I know. It would be easy to implement.
> Can users have multiple email addresses?
Yes.
> Are there profile pages where you can see a summary of their latest
> posts?
Not as far as I know, although HyperKitty could easily provide
something like it, if not already implemented.
Note that unlike LinkedIn (for one example) where there's a single
profile page and the owner get an edit interface while 3rd parties get
a read-only view, HyperKitty and Postorius will have different
viewpoints about the user profiles (although HyperKitty can probably
access the same information that Postorius does via Mailman core's
REST interface).
The Systers MI probably provides a more unified view, but it's pretty
alpha at the moment, and Systers-specific.
> Are usage statistics provided?
Not by Mailman itself. They are easy to provide by trawling the logs
(the Mailman 2 approach). In Mailman 3 they could be kept internally
and made available by the admin interface to HyperKitty or Postorius
if we knew what statistics are desired. What do you want to see?
> Also, did Mailman 2 already support LMTP and virtual domains or are those
> new?
LMTP, no, although I believe it was possible to fake it by talking
LMTP to Mailman 2's incoming SMTP interface (they're nearly the same
protocol). Mailman 3 *only* supports LMTP for incoming posts,
delegating the hairy interaction with the Internet to its upstream MTA.
Virtual domains, yes, with the usually mild restriction that the same
list address can't be used multiple times in different domains.
Third-party patches to remove that restriction were available. In
Mailman 3, that restriction has been removed.
Hi Kyra,
The mailman3 team choosed to not implement the wev archive part, but to
delegate this purpose to some dedicated archiving tools.
To achieve this, an archiver interface has been introduced to mailman3.
Several projects have started to implement archives, especially the
hyperkitty project (https://fedorahosted.org/hyperkitty/) which allows some
of the features you ask.
Here are the points i've tested :
web post : OK
web file attach : ok
search : ok
search multiple list : ok
hide quoted : yes
profile page : yes
list usage statistics : per list overview
mailman admin : some features available throught REST API provided by
mailman (i've not tested it yet)
On my side, i'm modifying hyperkitty to add an extension API (plugins)
which will ease the integration of new features like advanced rss or third
party tools integration (branch code :
https://github.com/nka11/hyperkitty/tree/plugin-api )
Feel free to visit hyperkitty project and ask its core developpers for more
information about its basic features
Hope this explanation of the new mailman3 architecture whill help you for
making your choice.
Best regards.
Nico Kara
Le 7 oct. 2013 04:41, "Kẏra" <kxra(a)riseup.net> a écrit :
> Hello,
>
> My name is Kẏra and I am the technology director of the Free Culture
> Foundation as well as a campaigns organizer for the Free Software
> Foundation and we're in need up upgrading our mailing lists to a more
> web-friendly system. I'm doing research on newer list severs to see how
> they compare. So far Groupserver seems to provide everything, but if
> Mailman 3 is going to be released soon, we'd like to consider that as well.
>
> I'm making a comparison chart and wanted to ask about Mailman 3 (and
> Postorius) features. Answers to any and all of the following with regards
> to Mailman 3 + Postorius would be super helpful:
>
> Can you post from the web interface?
> Is there file upload support?
> Is there now a search feature? Can it search multiple lists?
> Are there web feeds (atom or rss)? Generated from lists? searches? threads?
> files?
> Are posts and administration integrated into the web interface?
> Can you specify a posting rate restriction?
> Is full css customization for the web interface supported?
> Is css customization for the email interface supported?
> Is there site-side logging? (as opposed to server side)
> Is there a link to the post in the web interface in the footer of messages?
> Now that users are more than just email addresses, can you request to
> contact a list member?
> Can users have multiple email addresses?
> Are there profile pages where you can see a summary of their latest posts?
> Can the web interface hide quoted text?
> Are usage statistics provided?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Also, did Mailman 2 already support LMTP and virtual domains or are those
> new?
>
> Best,
> Kẏra
>
> --
> Board of Directors, Free Culture Foundation: www.freeculture.org
> Campaigns Organizer, Free Software Foundation: www.fsf.org
>
> Blog: http://kxra.info - StatusNet Microblog: http://identi.ca/kxra
> Email: kxra(a)freeculture.org - SMS: +1.617.340.3661
> Jabber/XMPP: kxra(a)riseup.net - IRC: kxra @freenode @oftc @indymedia
> _______________________________________________
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>
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