Mailman 3 Re: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman-Developers Digest, Vol 286, Issue 10 - Mailman-Developers

1 Mar 2013 · *team*

      On the matter of communications, I might hope to take yet a moment to
address my goals, motivations, and expectations for contributing to the
quite-worthy, well-thought-out and respectable mailman3 *team* effort and
re-establish what might be already seemingly clear to some...I am a
new-comer to the software development field but am not clueless as to the
notion that everybody's style doesn't always immediately mesh up
automatically but rest assured that I'll try to get to speed and make sure
I don't re-address anything beyond reason (my goal for restatement is an
attempt at allowing for the opportunity to address any misconceived notions
I have so I can get confirmation that I understood correctly and move on
quickly).  As a contributor in an environment where everybody's diverse
experiences are valuable to the group effort, the environment for me will
present a much-welcomed chance to draw on such experiences where I am
hoping to give as much as I could draw and hope your advice and direction
will be shared often to help achieve this!
To summarize my background and experience for all with an interested, I
began school to be in business, finishing there in 2006 with a BS in
Business to become a federally-serving private sector employee working in
IT, but realized after just a few short years in that role that the heart
of our service - computers - was not only my area of passion but also
something I could see myself doing for the longer-term of a career perhaps.
In my first position as a 'business person' I built a website (as a
separate contract-pay assignment), put my web development experience to
work growing in a non-profit for my career sector, and started my own sites
and building web applications, to lead me to my current position as a
continuing student (in CS,software) where I supposed I am being convinced
of my grad school/research ideals but am retaining the goal of
philanthropic contribution.  I did have the chance to participate in some
local STEM initiatives which was pretty cool (involving python programming
with middle- and high-school children, locally).
I have had the opportunity of working of course with people whose styles
meshed easily and some where it was more difficult, but I would like to
assert that I'm very enthusiastic about being on-board here with all of you
and would like to attend any meetings for general discussion or encourage
reaching out if you see me poking around the #mailman chat, you want to set
up a google hangout to discuss mailman, etc (by default, email is perfectly
adequate, if you prefer that only).
The more quickly I can come to fitting in and sharing the heavy-lifting,
the better for all (and the outcome for mailman, I hope)
Please friend me, follow me, ask about my experiences, or ask to see more
if you don't find what out you'd like to know about me through at my site
pages: chriscargile.com, chriscargile.com/portfolio
When we know whether the networking supports it, I would find it great to
meet for a video chat or streamcast from the pysprint, if you're
interested?
I am working on the virtual-machine idea, in the meantime, if anyone wants
a status update on it, sometime soon
R/Chris
On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 6:00 AM, <mailman-developers-request@python.org>wrote:
...
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Today's Topics:

background on maintaining the documentation (was RE:
Mailman-Developers Digest, Vol 286, Issue 9) (Chris Cargile)
Re: background on maintaining the documentation (was RE:
Mailman-Developers Digest, Vol 286, Issue 9) (Terri Oda)
Re: background on maintaining the documentation (was RE:
Mailman-Developers Digest, Vol 286, Issue 9) (Barry Warsaw)
Re: Mailman-Developers Digest, Vol 286, Issue 7 (Barry Warsaw)

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 14:33:48 -0500
From: Chris Cargile <follybeachris@gmail.com>
To: mailman-developers@python.org
Subject: [Mailman-Developers] background on maintaining the
documentation (was RE: Mailman-Developers Digest, Vol 286, Issue 9)
Message-ID:
<CAHxCx-sJ_=3D=
gZMV_hdRTdTz+RHMW_iCqRHYF+g2A+G3_mj5Q@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
thanks guys - that helps me get going with things..like documentation
probably should, huh? :)
...
If there is any functionality that you are wondering about, by all means
provide a link to an example of its usage and I'll try and give an opinion
on
whether it will be easily supported or not. Generally, the border between
Wiki and CMS territory is vague (a Wiki is a form of CMS, after all) and
it
can be quite straightforward to add functionality regarded as CMS-specific
to
Moin.
Paul
the Moin system will get us away from the Atlassian licensing hassle AND
would tie in great for enabling a new website for the MM3 release, - it
would be cool, IMO, if we got to explore the RSS feature's (
http://moinmo.in/MoinMoinSyndication) working since we could generate
recent changes outputting onto a feed, and from there, either give the RSS
page some nice CSS or display the feed on the new site main-page if it was
being served up separately from the moin system.  I also checked using the
w3c validator and moin outputs its pages in valid-xhtml mark-up so that's
good for accessibility, which seems like a good goal for Mailman too,
seeing as its role is a communications medium
so +++1 for the moin cms transfer (/RSS?) - I don't have much familiarity
with moin blogspaces, but it'll work fine I bet
...
...
So I interpret your question as being whether the documentation on the
Wiki is
just a snapshot of some documentation maintained elsewhere or whether the
work is being done on the Wiki itself.
The documentation is maintained to some level in Atlassian,
pythonhosted.org,
and the bzr repos (, other places?) per package, so Terri explained that
Atlassian is the main location for how-to's, admin guides, and GSOC stuff.
Otherwise, for simplicity, the packages have docs and doctests, in the
individual package themselves
on Tue, 26 Feb 2013 10:38 Terri Oda wrote:
...
At minimum, I think it is important to get confirmation whether the
confluence snapshot (wiki.list.org) is just a snapshot and we can direct
our efforts at updating the documentation there? also, on that note, what
would be the sphinx documentation role in all this and/or how necessary
is
it to understand that system?
...
...
You can, in the case of errors, also submit
merge requests to fix the documentation in the source tree.  At some
point, I imagine Paul will tell us the migration is ready to go and
we'll freeze the wiki, but for now go ahead and edit there.
Would the merges accepted propogate document changes to the package repos
or are we referring to a merge against a documents-repo that is somewhere I
don't know of.  I'm still confused on where the sphinx documentation plays
into it (is that maybe like building javadocs only, instead it does so for
python, maybe)
r/Chris

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 17:18:49 -0700
From: Terri Oda <terri@zone12.com>
To: Chris Cargile <follybeachris@gmail.com>,
mailman-developers@python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Developers] background on maintaining the
documentation (was RE: Mailman-Developers Digest, Vol 286, Issue 9)
Message-ID: <512EA269.6020802@zone12.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 13-02-27 12:33 PM, Chris Cargile wrote:
...
the Moin system will get us away from the Atlassian licensing hassle
AND would tie in great for enabling a new website for the MM3 release,
Um... Chris, you do realize that we're experience software developers
working on a project under the banner of the free software foundation?
We're reasonably familiar with licensing issues and how they relate to
mailman!  The message you sent (which I've mostly snipped) is not only
un-timely at this point so long after the decision about switching was
made but also seems a little patronizing in context.
...
Would the merges accepted propogate document changes to the package
repos or are we referring to a merge against a documents-repo that is
somewhere I don't know of. I'm still confused on where the sphinx
documentation plays into it (is that maybe like building javadocs
only, instead it does so for python, maybe)
There is a docs directory in each project.  There is no separate docs repo.
Mailman's is here:
https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/3.0/files/head:/src/mai...
Postorius' is here:
https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/postorius/trunk/files/head:/src...
and I don't have a link for Hyperkitty's handy but I'm sure you can find
it yourself.
And now my turn to border on patronizing:  My recommendation is that as
a new contributor, you should really stick to editing the wiki until you
have a sense of what you're doing and let the devs maintain the
documentation for their own packages.
Terri

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 22:59:40 -0500
From: Barry Warsaw <barry@list.org>
To: mailman-developers@python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Developers] background on maintaining the
documentation (was RE: Mailman-Developers Digest, Vol 286, Issue 9)
Message-ID: <20130227225940.65ce4d94@anarchist.wooz.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
On Feb 27, 2013, at 02:33 PM, Chris Cargile wrote:
...
the Moin system will get us away from the Atlassian licensing hassle AND
would tie in great for enabling a new website for the MM3 release,
I'm really hoping we can get onto Moin soon, not only for the above good
reasons, but also because of the free software issue, and because -- while
generous -- it's still a big hassle to deal with our Confluence hosting
provider when problems come up.  I'm very confident we can find a
Moin-based
wiki a good home.
...
The documentation is maintained to some level in Atlassian,
pythonhosted.org,
and the bzr repos (, other places?) per package, so Terri explained that
Atlassian is the main location for how-to's, admin guides, and GSOC stuff.
Otherwise, for simplicity, the packages have docs and doctests, in the
individual package themselves
I'm a big fan of having as much documentation in the source repository as
possible.  I love a good wiki, but everything needs gardening and
documentation seems better suited for version control systems.  Not all
documentation need be testable, but that which can be works great being
part
of the source tree.  (The current doctest suite is I think of mixed
quality;
some of the older doctests conflated too much bad-path testing which makes
it
more difficult to read as documentation.  I've been migrating much of that
to
unittests, in order to improve the readability and good-path flow of the
documentation.)
It's also much easier to review and merge documentation changes via our
dvcs
tools.
One thing that's missing is better overview documentation.  That's long
been
on my list of things to improve.
...
Would the merges accepted propogate document changes to the package repos
or
are we referring to a merge against a documents-repo that is somewhere I
don't know of.  I'm still confused on where the sphinx documentation plays
into it (is that maybe like building javadocs only, instead it does so for
python, maybe)
The pythonhosted.org (formerly packages.python.org) documentation is
generated
from the source tree via python setup.py build_sphinx.  You can build it
and
view it locally the same way.  python setup.py upload_docs is what gets
the
new documentation uploaded, but I've just created a project on
readthedocs.org
so I think we should migrate there as our primary online documentation
source.  The nice thing is that gets automatically updated when we push
updates to lp:mailman (i.e. trunk).
Cheers,
-Barry

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 23:12:07 -0500
From: Barry Warsaw <barry@list.org>
To: mailman-developers@python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman-Developers Digest, Vol 286,
Issue 7
Message-ID: <20130227231207.1e281f5f@anarchist.wooz.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
(I really should catch up on all the threads before I start responding.
Sigh,
it's been a long day. ;)
On Feb 26, 2013, at 10:38 AM, Terri Oda wrote:
...
Barry just uses the blog functionality as a news area; I'm guessing a
"recent
news" page would probably suffice for this.  I expect we'll keep the
Confluence wiki around for a little while after the migration, but since
it's
a minor hassle to get our license renewed, I expect it will lapse
eventually.
I mostly stopped blogging on Confluence, even for new releases, since it's
actually kind of a pain.  I should blog more Mailman stuff on my own blog
(www.wefearchange.org) and will definitely do so after Pycon.
...
I still have a todo list item reminding me that we'd like a new website
for
Mailman 3.0's release (including cleaning up the myriad different docs
available for previous versions) so maybe at that point we'll go back to
using the front page for news updates.
Of course, I'm +1 on a new website for MM3, and I'd *dearly* love to get
rid
of the ht2html based web site on www.list.org.  I bet Sphinx can give us
something awesome, and beautifully themed to our new logo and color scheme.
Cheers,
-Barry

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Mailman-Developers Digest, Vol 286, Issue 10

Chris Cargile

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