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Hi Developers,
I've done backporting the changes in Release_2_1-maint into the MAIN branch which was not updated more than a year and this has caused confusion for the people who want to try CVS checkout. For I was a little bit tired of maintaining two branches (or of the pressure to do so) I want to check in to the MAIN branch only hereafter, although some serious security bug fix (if any) should be committed in the 2.1 branch.
I believe the MAIN CVS checkout is now ready to be tested but plese let me know if you notice something.
Cheers,
Tokio Kikuchi, tkikuchi@ is.kochi-u.ac.jp http://weather.is.kochi-u.ac.jp/
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On Mon, 2005-08-29 at 01:38, Tokio Kikuchi wrote:
I'd like to add my thanks to Terri's for your work here! I haven't looked at the trunk yet, but this was work that was definitely necessary to get MM2.2 on track.
I'd like to open the discussion now about Python version support in MM2.2. My strong desire is to require at least Python 2.4 for MM2.2. Python 2.4 is 10 months old and a second patch release will probably come out within a few months. There's no question about its maturity and stability. As soon as Python 2.5 comes out (if history is any indication, that will be about 8 months from now), Python 2.3 will be officially become unsupported.
At the very least, we must drop Python 2.1 and 2.2. Neither of those versions are being supported any longer and I will definitely not claim to have tested the current code base on either version in a very long time. If we must continue to support Python 2.3, so be it, but I'd like to leapfrog even that version. There are several Python 2.4 constructs and modules that I'd dearly love to be able to take advantage of.
-Barry
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On 8/31/05 8:11 AM, "Barry Warsaw" <barry@python.org> wrote:
It seems to me that the improved email module is enough reason to require Python 2.4. (We moved our email processing to 2.4 for that reason.)
Yes, one can--as I understand it--use the new email module under Python 2.3, but if one has institutional issues that prevent using Python 2.4 they probably prevent messing about with 2.3 in that sort of way, as well.
--John
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On 8/31/05, Barry Warsaw <barry@python.org> wrote:
At the very least, we must drop Python 2.1 and 2.2.
+1
I'm fine with ditching support for Python 2.3. My primary concern is what's supported in FreeBSD ports, and it's been at Python 2.4 for 9 months now.
I'm sure there will be some complaints from people running "Enterprise" operating systems that are locked at older versions of Python. These could be alleviated if there was critical issue support for a MM2.1 maintenance branch for some period (not sure if anyone has time for this), or they could just be told they're out of luck.
Bryan
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- Barry Warsaw
| At the very least, we must drop Python 2.1 and 2.2. Neither of those | versions are being supported any longer and I will definitely not claim | to have tested the current code base on either version in a very long | time. If we must continue to support Python 2.3, so be it, but I'd like | to leapfrog even that version. There are several Python 2.4 constructs | and modules that I'd dearly love to be able to take advantage of.
The default python version in Debian is still 2.3, so I would really like 2.3 to be supported for MM2.2.
--
Tollef Fog Heen ,''. UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are : :' :
. '
-
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--On 1 September 2005 10:03:31 +0200 Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> wrote:
So, here <http://packages.debian.org/stable/python/> we see that the version of Python in Debian stable ('sarge') is python (2.3.5-2), as it is in Debian testing ('etch') release, and in Debian unstable ('sid')!
Mailman releases are mailman (2.1.5-8) through (2.1.5.9).
I reckon that Mailman 2.2 isn't likely to get into any of these releases, whether it requires 2.3 or 2.4.
My view is that Debian should not be allowed to hold up anyone's development cycles. As far as I know, it still ships with exim 3 as the default mailer, over three years after exim 4 was released. I think that even 'sid' ships with exim 3 as the default mailer.
-- Ian Eiloart Servers Team Sussex University ITS
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At 2:18 PM +0100 2005-09-01, Ian Eiloart wrote:
The problem is that a majority of the people who run python.org
are also heavily involved in Debian, so we're pretty much guaranteed to be shackled by whatever the Debian people want to do. I couldn't even get them to agree to run ntpd instead of ntpdate on the python.org machines, because that's not what was provided in the Debian packages.
-- Brad Knowles, <brad@stop.mail-abuse.org>
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755
SAGE member since 1995. See <http://www.sage.org/> for more info.
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At 3:32 PM +0200 2005-09-01, Brad Knowles wrote:
Sorry, it's not just a matter of what is provided in the Debian
packages. It's also a matter that they feel that good timesync is not important for us, and therefore they don't want to run ntpd.
All arguments from Thomas Akin's book "Hardening Cisco Routers"
(see <http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/hardcisco/chapter/ch10.html>), or <http://www.net.berkeley.edu/time/>, <http://uwadmnweb.uwyo.edu/InfoTech/Support/data/time.htm>, <http://www.spirit.com/Network/net0701.html>, or even the Linux Administrators Guide at <http://www.tldp.org/LDP/sag/html/ntp.html>, were not enough to convince them that good time sync is important.
-- Brad Knowles, <brad@stop.mail-abuse.org>
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755
SAGE member since 1995. See <http://www.sage.org/> for more info.
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- Brad Knowles
| At 2:18 PM +0100 2005-09-01, Ian Eiloart wrote: | | > My view is that Debian should not be allowed to hold up anyone's | > development cycles. As far as I know, it still ships with exim 3 as the | > default mailer, over three years after exim 4 was released. I think that | > even 'sid' ships with exim 3 as the default mailer. | | The problem is that a majority of the people who run python.org | are also heavily involved in Debian, so we're pretty much guaranteed | to be shackled by whatever the Debian people want to do. I couldn't | even get them to agree to run ntpd instead of ntpdate on the | python.org machines, because that's not what was provided in the | Debian packages.
They might want to look at the «ntp-simple» Debian package, then. ntpd is in that package.
--
Tollef Fog Heen ,''. UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are : :' :
. '
-
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"Brad" == Brad Knowles <brad@stop.mail-abuse.org> writes:
Brad> The problem is that a majority of the people who run
Brad> python.org are also heavily involved in Debian, so we're
Brad> pretty much guaranteed to be shackled by whatever the Debian
Brad> people want to do.
Maybe so, but I see little hope that Debian is going to turn into the Energizer Bunny any time soon. They've been getting slower and slower on everything (except putting out bilyuns and bilyuns of new -0.1 packages of _0.2 upstream releases) for years, and this summer they couldn't even get security releases out the door in a timely fashion.
I really hope Mailman can avoid getting tied to Debian's release cycle.
-- School of Systems and Information Engineering http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp University of Tsukuba Tennodai 1-1-1 Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN Ask not how you can "do" free software business; ask what your business can "do for" free software.
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-On [20050901 17:39], Stephen J. Turnbull (stephen@xemacs.org) wrote:
I really hope Mailman can avoid getting tied to Debian's release cycle.
Seconded. And I can reasonably speak from the BSD side of things here.
FreeBSD ports and pkgsrc (originally NetBSD's) have everything in place for 2.4, sure, older versions are also usable, but the push is/has been made for 2.4 as the standard/default.
-- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven <asmodai(at)wxs.nl> / asmodai / kita no mono Free Tibet! http://www.savetibet.org/ | http://www.andf.info/ http://www.tendra.org/ | http://www.in-nomine.org/ Tattva, achintya bheda abheda tattva...
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- Ian Eiloart
| --On 1 September 2005 10:03:31 +0200 Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> wrote: | | > The default python version in Debian is still 2.3, so I would really | > like 2.3 to be supported for MM2.2. | | So, here <http://packages.debian.org/stable/python/> we see that the | version of Python in Debian stable ('sarge') is python (2.3.5-2), as it is | in Debian testing ('etch') release, and in Debian unstable ('sid')! | | Mailman releases are mailman (2.1.5-8) through (2.1.5.9). | | I reckon that Mailman 2.2 isn't likely to get into any of these releases, | whether it requires 2.3 or 2.4.
I'm certainly hoping that Mailman 2.2 will go into the next stable, which is what's currently «testing». (Sid is «unstable» and will always be that, etch will be replaced with a new testing once it's stable.) Of course, this is dependent on whether Mailman 2.2 or etch releases first.
| My view is that Debian should not be allowed to hold up anyone's | development cycles. As far as I know, it still ships with exim 3 as the | default mailer, over three years after exim 4 was released. I think that | even 'sid' ships with exim 3 as the default mailer.
This is wrong; exim4 was changed to be default for the current stable release, released this summer.
--
Tollef Fog Heen ,''. UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are : :' :
. '
-
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On Thu, 2005-09-01 at 04:03, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
The default python version in Debian is still 2.3, so I would really like 2.3 to be supported for MM2.2.
I'm a Gentoo users myself, so I'm not really up on Debian's processes and schedules. However I did check a few other OSes that I had laying around.
Tiger (Mac OS X 10.4) is Python 2.3.5 Gentoo's stable is 2.3.5 RHEL4 is 2.3.4
So it looks like we'll have an uphill battle here, at least in the short term. Of course installing Python from source isn't really that hard; OTOH, every hurdle we put up probably peels off 50% of our users.
I definitely want the new email package, so let's see if it's feasible to target Python 2.3 and email 3.0 as a separate package, but leave open the door to Python 2.4 if there's a really compelling additional reason, or the OS landscape changes.
-Barry
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On Mon, 2005-08-29 at 01:38, Tokio Kikuchi wrote:
I'd like to add my thanks to Terri's for your work here! I haven't looked at the trunk yet, but this was work that was definitely necessary to get MM2.2 on track.
I'd like to open the discussion now about Python version support in MM2.2. My strong desire is to require at least Python 2.4 for MM2.2. Python 2.4 is 10 months old and a second patch release will probably come out within a few months. There's no question about its maturity and stability. As soon as Python 2.5 comes out (if history is any indication, that will be about 8 months from now), Python 2.3 will be officially become unsupported.
At the very least, we must drop Python 2.1 and 2.2. Neither of those versions are being supported any longer and I will definitely not claim to have tested the current code base on either version in a very long time. If we must continue to support Python 2.3, so be it, but I'd like to leapfrog even that version. There are several Python 2.4 constructs and modules that I'd dearly love to be able to take advantage of.
-Barry
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On 8/31/05 8:11 AM, "Barry Warsaw" <barry@python.org> wrote:
It seems to me that the improved email module is enough reason to require Python 2.4. (We moved our email processing to 2.4 for that reason.)
Yes, one can--as I understand it--use the new email module under Python 2.3, but if one has institutional issues that prevent using Python 2.4 they probably prevent messing about with 2.3 in that sort of way, as well.
--John
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On 8/31/05, Barry Warsaw <barry@python.org> wrote:
At the very least, we must drop Python 2.1 and 2.2.
+1
I'm fine with ditching support for Python 2.3. My primary concern is what's supported in FreeBSD ports, and it's been at Python 2.4 for 9 months now.
I'm sure there will be some complaints from people running "Enterprise" operating systems that are locked at older versions of Python. These could be alleviated if there was critical issue support for a MM2.1 maintenance branch for some period (not sure if anyone has time for this), or they could just be told they're out of luck.
Bryan
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- Barry Warsaw
| At the very least, we must drop Python 2.1 and 2.2. Neither of those | versions are being supported any longer and I will definitely not claim | to have tested the current code base on either version in a very long | time. If we must continue to support Python 2.3, so be it, but I'd like | to leapfrog even that version. There are several Python 2.4 constructs | and modules that I'd dearly love to be able to take advantage of.
The default python version in Debian is still 2.3, so I would really like 2.3 to be supported for MM2.2.
--
Tollef Fog Heen ,''. UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are : :' :
. '
-
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--On 1 September 2005 10:03:31 +0200 Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> wrote:
So, here <http://packages.debian.org/stable/python/> we see that the version of Python in Debian stable ('sarge') is python (2.3.5-2), as it is in Debian testing ('etch') release, and in Debian unstable ('sid')!
Mailman releases are mailman (2.1.5-8) through (2.1.5.9).
I reckon that Mailman 2.2 isn't likely to get into any of these releases, whether it requires 2.3 or 2.4.
My view is that Debian should not be allowed to hold up anyone's development cycles. As far as I know, it still ships with exim 3 as the default mailer, over three years after exim 4 was released. I think that even 'sid' ships with exim 3 as the default mailer.
-- Ian Eiloart Servers Team Sussex University ITS
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At 2:18 PM +0100 2005-09-01, Ian Eiloart wrote:
The problem is that a majority of the people who run python.org
are also heavily involved in Debian, so we're pretty much guaranteed to be shackled by whatever the Debian people want to do. I couldn't even get them to agree to run ntpd instead of ntpdate on the python.org machines, because that's not what was provided in the Debian packages.
-- Brad Knowles, <brad@stop.mail-abuse.org>
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755
SAGE member since 1995. See <http://www.sage.org/> for more info.

At 3:32 PM +0200 2005-09-01, Brad Knowles wrote:
Sorry, it's not just a matter of what is provided in the Debian
packages. It's also a matter that they feel that good timesync is not important for us, and therefore they don't want to run ntpd.
All arguments from Thomas Akin's book "Hardening Cisco Routers"
(see <http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/hardcisco/chapter/ch10.html>), or <http://www.net.berkeley.edu/time/>, <http://uwadmnweb.uwyo.edu/InfoTech/Support/data/time.htm>, <http://www.spirit.com/Network/net0701.html>, or even the Linux Administrators Guide at <http://www.tldp.org/LDP/sag/html/ntp.html>, were not enough to convince them that good time sync is important.
-- Brad Knowles, <brad@stop.mail-abuse.org>
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755
SAGE member since 1995. See <http://www.sage.org/> for more info.

- Brad Knowles
| At 2:18 PM +0100 2005-09-01, Ian Eiloart wrote: | | > My view is that Debian should not be allowed to hold up anyone's | > development cycles. As far as I know, it still ships with exim 3 as the | > default mailer, over three years after exim 4 was released. I think that | > even 'sid' ships with exim 3 as the default mailer. | | The problem is that a majority of the people who run python.org | are also heavily involved in Debian, so we're pretty much guaranteed | to be shackled by whatever the Debian people want to do. I couldn't | even get them to agree to run ntpd instead of ntpdate on the | python.org machines, because that's not what was provided in the | Debian packages.
They might want to look at the «ntp-simple» Debian package, then. ntpd is in that package.
--
Tollef Fog Heen ,''. UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are : :' :
. '
-
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"Brad" == Brad Knowles <brad@stop.mail-abuse.org> writes:
Brad> The problem is that a majority of the people who run
Brad> python.org are also heavily involved in Debian, so we're
Brad> pretty much guaranteed to be shackled by whatever the Debian
Brad> people want to do.
Maybe so, but I see little hope that Debian is going to turn into the Energizer Bunny any time soon. They've been getting slower and slower on everything (except putting out bilyuns and bilyuns of new -0.1 packages of _0.2 upstream releases) for years, and this summer they couldn't even get security releases out the door in a timely fashion.
I really hope Mailman can avoid getting tied to Debian's release cycle.
-- School of Systems and Information Engineering http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp University of Tsukuba Tennodai 1-1-1 Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN Ask not how you can "do" free software business; ask what your business can "do for" free software.
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-On [20050901 17:39], Stephen J. Turnbull (stephen@xemacs.org) wrote:
I really hope Mailman can avoid getting tied to Debian's release cycle.
Seconded. And I can reasonably speak from the BSD side of things here.
FreeBSD ports and pkgsrc (originally NetBSD's) have everything in place for 2.4, sure, older versions are also usable, but the push is/has been made for 2.4 as the standard/default.
-- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven <asmodai(at)wxs.nl> / asmodai / kita no mono Free Tibet! http://www.savetibet.org/ | http://www.andf.info/ http://www.tendra.org/ | http://www.in-nomine.org/ Tattva, achintya bheda abheda tattva...
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- Ian Eiloart
| --On 1 September 2005 10:03:31 +0200 Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> wrote: | | > The default python version in Debian is still 2.3, so I would really | > like 2.3 to be supported for MM2.2. | | So, here <http://packages.debian.org/stable/python/> we see that the | version of Python in Debian stable ('sarge') is python (2.3.5-2), as it is | in Debian testing ('etch') release, and in Debian unstable ('sid')! | | Mailman releases are mailman (2.1.5-8) through (2.1.5.9). | | I reckon that Mailman 2.2 isn't likely to get into any of these releases, | whether it requires 2.3 or 2.4.
I'm certainly hoping that Mailman 2.2 will go into the next stable, which is what's currently «testing». (Sid is «unstable» and will always be that, etch will be replaced with a new testing once it's stable.) Of course, this is dependent on whether Mailman 2.2 or etch releases first.
| My view is that Debian should not be allowed to hold up anyone's | development cycles. As far as I know, it still ships with exim 3 as the | default mailer, over three years after exim 4 was released. I think that | even 'sid' ships with exim 3 as the default mailer.
This is wrong; exim4 was changed to be default for the current stable release, released this summer.
--
Tollef Fog Heen ,''. UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are : :' :
. '
-
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On Thu, 2005-09-01 at 04:03, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
The default python version in Debian is still 2.3, so I would really like 2.3 to be supported for MM2.2.
I'm a Gentoo users myself, so I'm not really up on Debian's processes and schedules. However I did check a few other OSes that I had laying around.
Tiger (Mac OS X 10.4) is Python 2.3.5 Gentoo's stable is 2.3.5 RHEL4 is 2.3.4
So it looks like we'll have an uphill battle here, at least in the short term. Of course installing Python from source isn't really that hard; OTOH, every hurdle we put up probably peels off 50% of our users.
I definitely want the new email package, so let's see if it's feasible to target Python 2.3 and email 3.0 as a separate package, but leave open the door to Python 2.4 if there's a really compelling additional reason, or the OS landscape changes.
-Barry
participants (11)
-
Barry Warsaw
-
Bob Puff@NLE
-
Brad Knowles
-
Bryan Fullerton
-
Ian Eiloart
-
Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai
-
John W. Baxter
-
Stephen J. Turnbull
-
Terri Oda
-
Tokio Kikuchi
-
Tollef Fog Heen