Number of Mailman users?
Any ballpark estimates on the number of Mailman subscribers globally? Given that the FAQ mentions a list with 147,000 users, it seems safe to say that there are millions of Mailman users. What do you think?
I'd like a number for a grant report I'm writing.
Ellen
On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 04:36:27PM -0700, Ellen Spertus wrote:
Any ballpark estimates on the number of Mailman subscribers globally? Given that the FAQ mentions a list with 147,000 users, it seems safe to say that there are millions of Mailman users. What do you think?
Yes, there are several millions. Sourceforge.net probably has 3/400k (it would take a while to get the exact number), and a few other big sites have similar numbers too
I'd like a number for a grant report I'm writing.
I think you'llhave to stick to "several millions", this is open source software, and Barry doesn't receive per user license fees, so he can't count them either :-)
Marc
Microsoft is to operating systems & security .... .... what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ | Finger marc_f@merlins.org for PGP key
Do we know what the most popular open-source mlm is? My guess would be Mailman, but that's just off the top of my head.
I already got a flame for working on Mailman, rather than ezmlm, because of the perceived restrictiveness of the GPL.
Ellen
On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 04:47:31PM -0700, Ellen Spertus wrote:
Do we know what the most popular open-source mlm is? My guess would be Mailman, but that's just off the top of my head.
Either mailman or majordomo, hard to say. Majordomo had a big installed base, but it's losing grounds quickly (it was far from being the best, but it was the most popular)
I already got a flame for working on Mailman, rather than ezmlm, because of the perceived restrictiveness of the GPL.
You can point those people to the restrictions in qmail (which you more or less need to run ezmlm). http://www.linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/#djb After that, you notice that you have ezmlm and ezmlm-idx maintained by different people than the author (DJB), and the strange absence of license on the ezmlm.org web site (I didn't download it to check further). Of course, qmail itself isn't open source.
I'd *much* rather be working with Barry than DJB, thank you :-)
Marc
PS: ezmlm isn't crap though, it has some nice features that mailman doesn't quite match yet.
Microsoft is to operating systems & security .... .... what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ | Finger marc_f@merlins.org for PGP key
On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 04:58:28PM -0700, Marc MERLIN wrote:
Either mailman or majordomo, hard to say. Majordomo had a big installed base, but it's losing grounds quickly (it was far from being the best, but it was the most popular)
For a long time it was the top of the heap among a large variety of really, really, actually crappy mlm's.
I already got a flame for working on Mailman, rather than ezmlm, because of the perceived restrictiveness of the GPL.
You can point those people to the restrictions in qmail (which you more or less need to run ezmlm).
Less. Since postfix and courier both implement sub-addresses, you can use them to manage ezmlm. Since sendmail can be made to do that as well, you can probably make ezmlm work with sendmail these days, too.
This is better then some of the silly things that I've read in the past on Rick's crackmonkey pages. But what it comes down to is 2 things:
- Rick thinks he knows more about programming then djb
- Rick doesn't like the license.
However I haven't seen Rick produce or distribute very much software, and his presentations of his "reasons" for why he belittles djb (rather then, say writing his own, better, MTA) has made me unlikely to take his software/solutions recommendations seriously.
After that, you notice that you have ezmlm and ezmlm-idx maintained by different people than the author (DJB), and the strange absence of license on the ezmlm.org web site (I didn't download it to check further). Of course, qmail itself isn't open source.
I'd *much* rather be working with Barry than DJB, thank you :-)
Agreed, but the Freds who maintain ezmlm-idx are competant and knowledgeable, too. I like the fact that unlike when I was wondering, years ago if it was better to use /etc/aliases instead of majordomo/smartlist/whatever oddball list server, that now there are at least 2 good mlm's out there.
PS: ezmlm isn't crap though, it has some nice features that mailman doesn't quite match yet.
And its faster then oatmeal through an incontinent intestine.
-- The 5 year plan: In five years we'll make up another plan. Or just re-use this one.
On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 08:30:53PM -0700, Peter C. Norton wrote:
On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 04:58:28PM -0700, Marc MERLIN wrote:
Either mailman or majordomo, hard to say. Majordomo had a big installed base, but it's losing grounds quickly (it was far from being the best, but it was the most popular)
For a long time it was the top of the heap among a large variety of really, really, actually crappy mlm's.
You are correct, majordomo isn't all that bad, it's just rather inefficient.
You can point those people to the restrictions in qmail (which you more or less need to run ezmlm).
Less. Since postfix and courier both implement sub-addresses, you can use them to manage ezmlm. Since sendmail can be made to do that as well, you can probably make ezmlm work with sendmail these days, too.
hence "more or less" You are correct, but I don't know anyone who has done this yet.
- Rick doesn't like the license.
or lack thereof, which causes implied issues (outlined by Rick) That's my point too.
As far as I can tell, this is accurate:
They are thus definitively proprietary software -- with limited rights of gratis use if you acquire the package from Bernstein or someone he's specifically authorised to distribute it. Therefore, if you repair his bizarre design decisions, you may not share your work (except as patches, add-ons, or reconfiguration recommendations), and must re-do that repair work with each new version. You also may not put up even unmodified versions for public access (of many of his packages) without special permission.
However I haven't seen Rick produce or distribute very much software,
Rick is, like me, a sysadmin. He has proabably donated more of his time to the linux community than you and me. But we are not talking about him, are we?
(rather then, say writing his own, better, MTA) has made me unlikely
Why? Exim and postfix are fine choices. There are others I'm sure. Why write yet another MTA?
Agreed, but the Freds who maintain ezmlm-idx are competant and knowledgeable, too. I like the fact that unlike when I was wondering
I don't dispute this. In the meantime however: moremagic:/tmp/ezmlm-0.53# grep -i license * moremagic:/tmp/ezmlm-0.53#
ezmlm-idx-0.40 includes the GPL license file, but doesn't state anywhere that's it's licensed under the GPL, nor do I know if it can since it's based on ezmlm, which itself is not (as far as I know, GPL compliant, or even open source software)
The original point being that criticizing MM for being GPL in favor of ezmlm is probably not the smartest thing one can do IMO, considering the license issues around ezmlm...
I'll stop my contributions to this thread here, though. This is getting off topic.
Marc
Microsoft is to operating systems & security .... .... what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ | Finger marc_f@merlins.org for PGP key
At 08:50 PM 14/04/02 -0700, you wrote:
You are correct, majordomo isn't all that bad, it's just rather inefficient.
It wasn't bad at all... except that time when one of my list admins went and subscribed majordomo to one of its own reply-to-list lists. So someone sent somethign to the list, and majordomo responded with the entire help text. Then it got the help text it had sent out and responded with the entire help text... After 200 messages or so, it aborted. :P
I haven't tried subscribing a mailman-request address to a list to see if that can happen with mailman. :)
Terri
On Sun, Apr 14, 2002 at 04:58:28PM -0700, Marc MERLIN wrote:
I'd *much* rather be working with Barry than DJB, thank you :-)
I'd like to second, third, and *fourth* this.
Cheers, -- jra
Jay R. Ashworth jra@baylink.com Member of the Technical Staff Baylink RFC 2100 The Suncoast Freenet The Things I Think Tampa Bay, Florida http://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 647 1274
"If you don't have a dream; how're you gonna have a dream come true?" -- Captain Sensible, The Damned (from South Pacific's "Happy Talk")
I'd *much* rather be working with Barry than DJB, thank you :-)
I'd like to second, third, and *fourth* this.
Definitely. On the other hand, I won't work with djb. That doesn't mean I'm right and he's wrong. It just means I won't work with him.... And I'm sure knowing that makes his day, too.
-- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.chuqui.com/
IMHO: Jargon. Acronym for In My Humble Opinion. Used to flag as an opinion something that is clearly from context an opinion to everyone except the mentally dense. Opinions flagged by IMHO are actually rarely humble. IMHO. (source: third unabridged dictionary of chuqui-isms).
"MM" == Marc MERLIN <marc_news@vasoftware.com> writes:
MM> I think you'llhave to stick to "several millions", this is
MM> open source software, and Barry doesn't receive per user
MM> license fees, so he can't count them either :-)You haven't balanced your checkbook in a while then, have you Marc? True, there are no licensing fees, but I receive 1/20th of a penny for every message anybody sends through a Mailman system anywhere in the world, debited directly from their checking accounts (see Mailman/Handlers/Bwaahaahaa.py).
My beach front property (with a poolside gigabit wireless and waterproof laptop) is nearly finished, and delivery on the Maddenbus (I hate to fly) is just waiting on a decision about the color of the toilet seats. Yes, there are 7; I have a big entourage -- no smart aleck remarks please!
if-you-can't-get-rich-quick-at-least-get-rich-eventual-ly y'rs, -Barry
:)
participants (7)
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barry＠zope.com -
Chuq Von Rospach -
Ellen Spertus -
Jay R. Ashworth -
Marc MERLIN -
Peter C. Norton -
Terri Oda