Announcing the new wiki.list.org
I am very happy to announce our new wiki!
If you go to wiki.list.org you will see our shiny new Moin-based wiki. We are retiring the old Confluence-based wiki at the end of February. Until then, you can access it at old-wiki.list.org.
Our very huge thanks go to Paul Boddie who did the amazing conversion work, almost single-handedly reverse engineering the Confluence dump through several iterations. Of course, our thanks also go to John Viega, owner of the list.org domain and Mailman's inventor for helping us get the DNS flipped over. Thanks too to everyone who gave feedback on the new wiki, contributed to the old wiki, and continue to help edit this important resource for the Mailman community.
Our thanks also go to the Python Software Foundation and the PSF infrastructure team for providing us with the virtual machine hosting our new wiki.
If you had write access to the old wiki and want it again for the new wiki, you will have to re-submit a request to mailman-cabal@python.org. Please be sure to register with wiki.list.org and provide us with your user name.
With this conversion, I am happy to say that GNU Mailman is finally fully hosted on free software. While we appreciate the years of service donated to us by Atlassian and Contegix, it's important that we set an example by utilizing an entirely free software stack for our development and outreach. The wiki was our last remaining non-free bits.
Let the gardening begin!
Cheers, -Barry (On behalf of the GNU Mailman steering committee)
P.S. We are working on the SSL certificate for the new wiki. Stay tuned.
On Jan 26, 2015, at 10:10 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
If you had write access to the old wiki and want it again for the new wiki, you will have to re-submit a request to mailman-cabal@python.org. Please be sure to register with wiki.list.org and provide us with your user name.
Paul reminds me that we did copy over the user accounts from the old wiki, but obviously not the passwords. You should be able to do a password reset on the new wiki to recover your account. Do let us know if you have any problems with this.
Sumana and I also talked about theming recently. Both the web site and wiki could use an update (and I have thoughts about that) but in the meantime it would be nice if the wiki were themed closer to the website. If you have an interest in this, please contact mailman-developers@python.org.
Cheers, -Barry
On 01/27/2015 01:36 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
would be nice if the wiki were themed closer to the website. If you have an interest in this, please contact mailman-developers@python.org.
I'm willing to help with that.
-- Jim Tittsler http://www.OnJapan.net/ GPG: 0x01159DB6 Python Starship http://Starship.Python.net/crew/jwt/
On 01/27/2015 06:02 AM, Jim Tittsler wrote:
On 01/27/2015 01:36 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
would be nice if the wiki were themed closer to the website. If you have an interest in this, please contact mailman-developers@python.org.
I'm willing to help with that.
See <http://wiki.list.org/HelpOnThemes> to start. There may be something in the ThemeMarket that's good, e.g. maybe <https://moinmo.in/ThemeMarket/FixedLeft> with just a change in color would be a lot closer to <http://www.list.org/> as a starting point.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
On Jan 27, 2015, at 11:27 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
See <http://wiki.list.org/HelpOnThemes> to start. There may be something in the ThemeMarket that's good, e.g. maybe <https://moinmo.in/ThemeMarket/FixedLeft> with just a change in color would be a lot closer to <http://www.list.org/> as a starting point.
Ooo, purty pictures! I like this one too.
https://moinmo.in/ThemeMarket/Moniker
Cheers, -Barry
On Tuesday 27. January 2015 20.33.56 Barry Warsaw wrote:
On Jan 27, 2015, at 11:27 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
See <http://wiki.list.org/HelpOnThemes> to start. There may be something in the ThemeMarket that's good, e.g. maybe <https://moinmo.in/ThemeMarket/FixedLeft> with just a change in color would be a lot closer to <http://www.list.org/> as a starting point.
Ooo, purty pictures! I like this one too.
FixedLeft is a lot like the Mailman (and old Python) site; Moniker is pretty much of the same heritage, I'd say, although they all probably descend from the standard modern or modernized themes (which you can select in your settings, of course).
The Europython theme is similar to the one on python.org, which follows the "first redesign" Python site styling (if we consider the current Python site as the "second redesign"), but with a cleaner look.
I should dig out a few of my own themes and put them on the theme market, although they're not really applicable here (a MediaWiki-inspired theme integrating with yet another abandoned site style, a Mercurial-site-inspired theme, and a very minimal theme that serves as the basis for other, better themes).
More importantly, I could provide some more sensible code and resources for any new theme: the instructions on the Moin help page aren't really that friendly. The most challenging part is actually the CSS: generating the HTML in Moin is easy enough once you know the API and resist the temptation to emit HTML strings (which admittedly does work as well), but the contributions of the different CSS rules and how Moin uses them in various places is not necessarily very transparent.
Paul
On 2015-01-27 23:02 , Jim Tittsler wrote:
On 01/27/2015 01:36 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
would be nice if the wiki were themed closer to the website. If you have an interest in this, please contact mailman-developers@python.org.
I'm willing to help with that.
I've derived a simple brown theme from "modern" that looks more like list.org, but with a couple of intentional deviations (maximum line widths, and no underlining of links unless you hover).
Demo: http://starship.python.net/crew/jwt/wiki.list.org/moin.cgi Theme: https://code.launchpad.net/~jwt/+junk/wikilistorg
This may be adequate until someone does the larger website/wiki redesign you were mooting.
-- Jim Tittsler http://www.OnJapan.net/ GPG: 0x01159DB6 Python Starship http://Starship.Python.net/crew/jwt/ Mailman IRC irc://irc.freenode.net/#mailman
On 02/07/2015 07:59 PM, Jim Tittsler wrote:
I've derived a simple brown theme from "modern" that looks more like list.org, but with a couple of intentional deviations (maximum line widths, and no underlining of links unless you hover).
Thank you Jim. I think it's good. I've installed it on wiki.list.org, so anyone can select it (the 'mailman' theme) in their preferences. If others like it, we can make it the default theme.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
On Sunday 8. February 2015 07.28.22 Mark Sapiro wrote:
On 02/07/2015 07:59 PM, Jim Tittsler wrote:
I've derived a simple brown theme from "modern" that looks more like list.org, but with a couple of intentional deviations (maximum line widths, and no underlining of links unless you hover).
Thank you Jim. I think it's good. I've installed it on wiki.list.org, so anyone can select it (the 'mailman' theme) in their preferences. If others like it, we can make it the default theme.
It's very nice. Thanks, Jim, for putting this together! I particularly like it that you've put links to various useful pages in the sidebar.
If I were to suggest anything to change - not that my opinion is that important in the context of Mailman development, however - I might suggest not limiting the width of the header and page content, but instead just letting it fill the window. (I have a bit of a personal preference about this kind of thing, though.) For consistency with www.list.org, I guess that the fonts could be adjusted, too, although they actually seem nicer with this style, so maybe you could persuade someone to adjust the other site instead. :-)
Generally, Moin doesn't throw up too many surprises when styling - various special system pages usually keep working, albeit with a traditional look within any wildly restyled site - but it's always worth checking pages like RecentChanges and FindPage to see if you want to propagate things like colour changes to every corner of the site.
I'll take a look at the theme and see if there's anything else I can suggest, but it's certainly nicely done.
Paul
On 02/08/2015 04:37 AM, Paul Boddie wrote:
If I were to suggest anything to change - not that my opinion is that important in the context of Mailman development, however - I might suggest not limiting the width of the header and page content, but instead just letting it fill the window.
I agree with Paul here. I really didn't notice an issue at first, but today I had occasion to point to <http://wiki.list.org/x/15958359> and the attachments thereto and noticed a lot of wrapped lines, particularly in the PostLimit.py attachment that wouldn't wrap in my window width, even with the left sidebar.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
On 02/09/2015 07:39 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
On 02/08/2015 04:37 AM, Paul Boddie wrote:
[...] I might suggest not limiting the width of the header and page content, but instead just letting it fill the window.
I agree with Paul here. I really didn't notice an issue at first, but today I had occasion to point to <http://wiki.list.org/x/15958359> and
OK. I've pushed a new version that does not limit the width of the header/content column. https://code.launchpad.net/~jwt/+junk/wikilistorg
I've also fixed a few other things that I noticed after seeing the actual wiki content in the theme... like clawing back a few pixels to better accommodate some of the very long page titles.
-- Jim Tittsler http://www.OnJapan.net/ GPG: 0x01159DB6 Python Starship http://Starship.Python.net/crew/jwt/ Mailman IRC irc://irc.freenode.net/#mailman
On Monday 9. February 2015 12.00.57 Jim Tittsler wrote:
On 02/09/2015 07:39 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
On 02/08/2015 04:37 AM, Paul Boddie wrote:
[...] I might suggest not limiting the width of the header and page content, but instead just letting it fill the window.
I agree with Paul here. I really didn't notice an issue at first, but today I had occasion to point to <http://wiki.list.org/x/15958359> and
OK. I've pushed a new version that does not limit the width of the header/content column. https://code.launchpad.net/~jwt/+junk/wikilistorg
I've also fixed a few other things that I noticed after seeing the actual wiki content in the theme... like clawing back a few pixels to better accommodate some of the very long page titles.
I realised that I was being lazy not testing this on my own machine, given that I'd migrated the content a few times and have plenty of pages to test with, so I had a quick look at the code.
I've attached a patch to this message - hoping Mailman doesn't strip it! - which makes some minor, functionality-preserving changes that might help future maintenance of the various sidebar lists.
Not really knowing bzr at all, I generated this using "bzr send -o sidebars.diff", but what I would have used in Mercurial is probably "hg export tip > sidebars.diff", just for the record. ;-)
Paul
On 02/09/2015 03:00 AM, Jim Tittsler wrote:
OK. I've pushed a new version that does not limit the width of the header/content column. https://code.launchpad.net/~jwt/+junk/wikilistorg
I've also fixed a few other things that I noticed after seeing the actual wiki content in the theme... like clawing back a few pixels to better accommodate some of the very long page titles.
I have updated the theme on the wiki with these changes. I did not try to install Paul's patch. I'll leave it up to Jim to apply it to his branch and pull it from there.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
Mark Sapiro wrote:
I have updated the theme on the wiki with these changes. I did not try to install Paul's patch. I'll leave it up to Jim to apply it to his branch and pull it from there.
Actually I see Jim had already applied Paul's patch before I pulled the latest rev, so it is in the installed theme.
Shall we go ahead and make it the default theme for new users?
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
On Monday 9. February 2015 23.57.56 Barry Warsaw wrote:
On Feb 09, 2015, at 02:45 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
Shall we go ahead and make it the default theme for new users?
+1
While away from my computer and thus unable to really do anything, I noticed that the theme resources for various extensions hadn't been incorporated into the new wiki theme, making things like comments look unstyled. See the community home page for an example of comments:
https://wiki.list.org/COM/Home
I have now run the necessary commands to install these resources into the mailman theme and to make sure that the stylesheet picks up the additional CSS rules from a couple of separate files. In practice, it's just a matter of copying two files into the theme directories and adding some @import directives to the screen.css and print.css files, but I tend to use a program I wrote myself to take care of these chores.
Apologies for not picking up on this earlier: I was so excited by the new theme that I forgot to consider this additional task!
Paul
P.S. I've also added a help page for the enhanced tables that also form part of the migrated content, fixing a bug that for some reason only manifested itself on this wiki at the very moment of deploying the page, despite me using this extension on personal sites for several years, thus prompting a long- overdue "what was I thinking?" moment (but also making me wonder a bit about Moin's formatting machinery). However, *regular* table formatting does seem to be particularly fussy on this wiki, but not on any other Moin 1.8 or 1.9 installation I've ever seen, for reasons I haven't yet figured out.
On Feb 08, 2015, at 12:59 PM, Jim Tittsler wrote:
I've derived a simple brown theme from "modern" that looks more like list.org, but with a couple of intentional deviations (maximum line widths, and no underlining of links unless you hover).
Great job, I like it a lot!
If I had to be picky, I'd probably suggest scaling down the upper right logo, so that the top and side bars can be a bit narrower. In comparison to www.list.org, the wiki logo seems larger, and thus the navbars seem out of proportion.
(FWIW, I've been playing with Nikola[*] lately on a redesign of my personal sites, and there are a lot of nice things about it. I'm hoping if/when I find time to finish that up it will make a nice replacement for the ancient ht2html based www.list.org.)
Cheers, -Barry
On Feb 09, 2015, at 02:07 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
If I had to be picky, I'd probably suggest scaling down the upper right logo, so that the top and side bars can be a bit narrower. In comparison to www.list.org, the wiki logo seems larger, and thus the navbars seem out of proportion.
Okay, let's just ignore that. Jim and I investigated a bit on IRC and it seems to be something weird with my Chrome on Ubuntu 15.04. It looks fine on Safari and Chrome on OS X Yosemite, so that's good enough for me.
Great work Jim, and thanks! -Barry
Barry Warsaw wrote:
Sumana and I also talked about theming recently. Both the web site and wiki could use an update (and I have thoughts about that) but in the meantime it would be nice if the wiki were themed closer to the website. If you have an interest in this, please contact mailman-developers at python.org.
With much thanks to Jim Tittsler, we now have a 'mailman' theme for wiki.list.org that is very similar in look and feel to www.list.org. As of now, the 'mailman' theme is the default theme for new users and is the theme for non-logged-in users.
If you registered before now or had your registration imported from the old Confluence wiki, your theme defaulted to the standard MoinMoin 'modernized' theme, but all users have a choice of several themes including the 'mailman' theme on their Settings -> Preferences page.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
The Mailman wiki (http://wiki.list.org/> has been getting some much needed attention lately. In addition to the additions and cleaning up <http://wiki.list.org/RecentChanges> that has been and is still going on, there have been a couple of software changes since the initial move to MoinMoin.
The wiki was initially running on the Ubuntu python-moinmoin 1.9.7-1ubuntu2 package. It is now running on the MoinMoin 1.9.8 source distribution.
There is a change log at <http://hg.moinmo.in/moin/1.9/file/1.9.8/docs/CHANGES>, but we don't know which if any of the changes might have been backported in the Ubuntu package, and we don't know what Ubuntu package specific things we might have undone.
Noticeable changes at this point include a choice of the text or the GUI editor where previously only the text editor was offered (you can change this in your preferences) and a few bug fixes.
The wiki is also now being served through mod_wsgi which may result in faster response, but probably won't be noticeable.
Otherwise, the wiki should be working the same as it has been since the initial move to MoinMoin five weeks ago.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
Barry Warsaw, 26/01/2015 16:10:
Our very huge thanks go to Paul Boddie who did the amazing conversion work, almost single-handedly reverse engineering the Confluence dump through several iterations.
Hurray! Well done. Can you publish the dump somewhere on your site, or on archive.org? WikiTeam is very interested in Confluence dumps, any writing/braindump/code on the matter is very welcome. https://github.com/WikiTeam/wikiteam/issues/108
With this conversion, I am happy to say that GNU Mailman is finally fully hosted on free software.
Again great.
Nemo
Keeping this on mailman-developers since I'm not on all those other lists. ;-)
On Monday 26. January 2015 17.56.26 Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:
Barry Warsaw, 26/01/2015 16:10:
Our very huge thanks go to Paul Boddie who did the amazing conversion work, almost single-handedly reverse engineering the Confluence dump through several iterations.
Hurray! Well done. Can you publish the dump somewhere on your site, or on archive.org? WikiTeam is very interested in Confluence dumps, any writing/braindump/code on the matter is very welcome. https://github.com/WikiTeam/wikiteam/issues/108
I'll leave this for the others to decide, although it's not that difficult to obtain dumps directly from Confluence yourself. So, even though one might have bad things to say about proprietary services, credit is due to Atlassian for allowing their users to download most of their data (the profile information isn't available through the same mechanism) for deployment in other ways.
The conversion software itself is described here:
https://moinmo.in/ConfluenceConverter
My advice to anyone considering migrating from Confluence is to do so in a short timeframe (and as soon as possible if you want the above code to work!) in order to avoid changes in the product disrupting the activity and necessitating more work. For example, while tackling this task, Confluence 4 came out with a completely different page text representation which then had to be parsed and converted.
If you need to know more about this, feel free to ask me directly.
Paul
participants (6)
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Barry Warsaw -
Barry Warsaw -
Federico Leva (Nemo) -
Jim Tittsler -
Mark Sapiro -
Paul Boddie