monthly password reminder bounce reaction
We, the Python.org postmasters, received about 2.200 bounces at Mailman day from monthly password reminders that did not reach the recipient.
Ralf said such bounces do not increase a mailing list members bounce score. Is this correct? If it is, can we add such behaviour to the MM3 feature list? Any objections?
p@rick
-- state of mind Digitale Kommunikation
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- Patrick Ben Koetter <p@state-of-mind.de>:
We, the Python.org postmasters, received about 2.200 bounces at Mailman day from monthly password reminders that did not reach the recipient.
These were VERPified, thus could easily be matched to the original recipient. A retarded task I did manually.
-- Ralf Hildebrandt Geschäftsbereich IT | Abteilung Netzwerk Charité - Universitätsmedizin Berlin Campus Benjamin Franklin Hindenburgdamm 30 | D-12200 Berlin Tel. +49 30 450 570 155 | Fax: +49 30 450 570 962 Ralf.Hildebrandt@charite.de | http://www.charite.de
On Jun 1, 2009, at 5:25 PM, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote:
We, the Python.org postmasters, received about 2.200 bounces at
Mailman day from monthly password reminders that did not reach the recipient.Ralf said such bounces do not increase a mailing list members bounce
score. Is this correct? If it is, can we add such behaviour to the MM3
feature list? Any objections?
I believe that's right because the password reminders come from the
site list. Because of the mailing list silos in MM2.x, it's not
feasible to map those onto all the lists the email address could be a
member of.
Remember that monthly reminders are a thing of the past. They won't
be in MM3 and IIRC, they've already been removed from the MM2.2 tree
also.
-Barry
- Barry Warsaw <barry@list.org>:
I believe that's right because the password reminders come from the site list. Because of the mailing list silos in MM2.x, it's not feasible to map those onto all the lists the email address could be a member of.
Remember that monthly reminders are a thing of the past. They won't be in MM3 and IIRC, they've already been removed from the MM2.2 tree also.
What else is there to remind the users?
On Jun 2, 2009, at 1:08 AM, Ralf Hildebrandt wrote:
- Barry Warsaw <barry@list.org>:
I believe that's right because the password reminders come from the
site list. Because of the mailing list silos in MM2.x, it's not
feasible to map those onto all the lists the email address could be a member of.Remember that monthly reminders are a thing of the past. They
won't be in MM3 and IIRC, they've already been removed from the MM2.2 tree also.What else is there to remind the users?
There isn't anything I think. Are you asking because you think the
monthly reminders still have a valid use case? I'd love to keep them
killed off since I think the headache they introduce (especially for
admins) far outweighs any benefit to users.
-Barry
- Barry Warsaw <barry@list.org>:
What else is there to remind the users?
There isn't anything I think. Are you asking because you think the
monthly reminders still have a valid use case? I'd love to keep them
killed off since I think the headache they introduce (especially for
admins) far outweighs any benefit to users.
Pro: They could be used to weed out undeliverables on low traffic
announce lists
Con: they add unwanted traffic for low traffic announce lists
headache for admins
--On 2 June 2009 07:09:55 -0400 Barry Warsaw <barry@list.org> wrote:
There isn't anything I think. Are you asking because you think the monthly reminders still have a valid use case? I'd love to keep them killed off since I think the headache they introduce (especially for admins) far outweighs any benefit to users.
Of course, site admins ought to be able to disable them or change the default for the site, specific lists or users. List admins should be able to disable them or change the default for their lists, or specific users. Users should be able to disable them or enable them per list (where they're permitted to).
The use case. If I'm changing an email address - eg moving jobs, I'll set up forwarding for a while, and change my subscriptions accordingly. If I don't get a message from a list before the old account is disabled, then I stop getting mail from that list. There must be other use cases.
-- Ian Eiloart IT Services, University of Sussex 01273-873148 x3148 For new support requests, see http://www.sussex.ac.uk/its/help/
On Jun 2, 2009, at 8:11 AM, Ian Eiloart wrote:
The use case. If I'm changing an email address - eg moving jobs,
I'll set up forwarding for a while, and change my subscriptions
accordingly. If I don't get a message from a list before the old
account is disabled, then I stop getting mail from that list. There
must be other use cases.
I hope that we can address this through two new "features". First,
you'll be able to associate multiple email addresses with your
account, and if one starts bouncing, Mailman can just flip over to the
next enabled one on your list. Second, you'll be able to get password
resets (not reminders -- the passwords will now be encrypted!) just
like for every other site you're on. Of course, I also plan to
support OpenID so you won't have to remember a bazillion passwords.
There is the case where you just don't remember you're on a mailing
list until it's too late (i.e. your old email has expired). Once you
remember this, you should be able to log into your account, e.g. via
OpenID, and associate a new email address with it, then verify it and
get your deliveries working again.
-Barry
Barry Warsaw wrote:
Are you asking because you think the monthly reminders still have a valid use case? I'd love to keep them killed off since I think the headache they introduce (especially for admins) far outweighs any benefit to users.
Being on by default is a headache for users too. Every time I subscribe to a mailing list, I have to go into settings just to disable the damn thing.
Should you reintroduce them in MM3, please set them off by default. Thanks. :-)
-- Nicola Larosa - http://www.tekNico.net/ (the 1:30AM bossanova guitar player ;-) )
On Jun 2, 2009, at 9:39 AM, Nicola Larosa wrote:
Barry Warsaw wrote:
Are you asking because you think the monthly reminders still have a valid use case? I'd love to keep them killed off since I think the headache they introduce (especially for admins) far outweighs any benefit to users.
Being on by default is a headache for users too. Every time I
subscribe to a mailing list, I have to go into settings just to disable the
damn thing.Should you reintroduce them in MM3, please set them off by default. Thanks. :-)
Indeed. But I think they should stay dead.
Nicola Larosa - http://www.tekNico.net/ (the 1:30AM bossanova guitar player ;-) )
Which was excellent btw! :)
-Barry
Barry> Remember that monthly reminders are a thing of the past. They
Barry> won't be in MM3 and IIRC, they've already been removed from the
Barry> MM2.2 tree also.Thank you. As the person who maintains the mail.python.org spam filters the volume of held messages I have to wade through is huge around the first of the month because of bouncing reminders.
Skip
- skip@pobox.com <skip@pobox.com>:
Barry> Remember that monthly reminders are a thing of the past. They Barry> won't be in MM3 and IIRC, they've already been removed from the Barry> MM2.2 tree also.Thank you. As the person who maintains the mail.python.org spam filters the volume of held messages I have to wade through is huge around the first of the month because of bouncing reminders.
I will definitely miss Mailman Day. ;)
p@rick
-- state of mind Digitale Kommunikation
Franziskanerstraße 15 Telefon +49 89 3090 4664 81669 München Telefax +49 89 3090 4666
Amtsgericht München Partnerschaftsregister PR 563
On Jun 3, 2009, at 9:43 AM, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote:
- skip@pobox.com <skip@pobox.com>:
Barry> Remember that monthly reminders are a thing of the past.
They Barry> won't be in MM3 and IIRC, they've already been removed
from the Barry> MM2.2 tree also.Thank you. As the person who maintains the mail.python.org spam
filters the volume of held messages I have to wade through is huge around the
first of the month because of bouncing reminders.I will definitely miss Mailman Day. ;)
Y'know, if we could only make those fun and viral, we'd all be rich! :)
-Barry
Patrick Ben Koetter wrote:
We, the Python.org postmasters, received about 2.200 bounces at Mailman day from monthly password reminders that did not reach the recipient.
Ralf said such bounces do not increase a mailing list members bounce score. Is this correct? If it is, can we add such behaviour to the MM3 feature list?
The reminders go away in Mailman 3.0 as does the site list, so the problem goes away.
See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/aICB> for a description of the issues and why this is happening.
I agree that 2200 bounces is a huge number to deal with manually. I'm willing to work with you to find a way to deal with these programmatically if you wish.
Just incrementing the bounce score for such a user on all lists of which she is a member will not work, because as the FAQ notes, her list delivery is probably disabled so the only bounces are the password reminder, and likely, last month's bounce is stale when this one arrives.
Removing the member from all lists is often the right thing, but consider a member who is actually active on lists, but bounces un-whitelisted mail and forgets to whitelist the site list. Then the password reminder bounces and he is removed from all lists.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net>:
Patrick Ben Koetter wrote:
We, the Python.org postmasters, received about 2.200 bounces at Mailman day from monthly password reminders that did not reach the recipient.
Ralf said such bounces do not increase a mailing list members bounce score. Is this correct? If it is, can we add such behaviour to the MM3 feature list?
The reminders go away in Mailman 3.0 as does the site list, so the problem goes away.
Fine.
See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/aICB> for a description of the issues and why this is happening.
I agree that 2200 bounces is a huge number to deal with manually. I'm willing to work with you to find a way to deal with these programmatically if you wish.
Thanks for the offer. Ralf already took care of it and he's not the kind of guy to use his hands if a script can do it. I haven't asked, but I guess he used some awk magic...
Just incrementing the bounce score for such a user on all lists of which she is a member will not work, because as the FAQ notes, her list delivery is probably disabled so the only bounces are the password reminder, and likely, last month's bounce is stale when this one arrives.
Removing the member from all lists is often the right thing, but consider a member who is actually active on lists, but bounces un-whitelisted mail and forgets to whitelist the site list. Then the password reminder bounces and he is removed from all lists.
Yes, I understand that very well. My mail was more about "doing the right thing" than about what exactly should be done.
Since the cause will be removed the problem should be gone in MM3.
p@rick
-- state of mind Digitale Kommunikation
Franziskanerstraße 15 Telefon +49 89 3090 4664 81669 München Telefax +49 89 3090 4666
Amtsgericht München Partnerschaftsregister PR 563
- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net>:
See the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/aICB> for a description of the issues and why this is happening.
Yes, that's why
I agree that 2200 bounces is a huge number to deal with manually. I'm willing to work with you to find a way to deal with these programmatically if you wish.
I already scripted that
Just incrementing the bounce score for such a user on all lists of which she is a member will not work, because as the FAQ notes, her list delivery is probably disabled so the only bounces are the password reminder, and likely, last month's bounce is stale when this one arrives.
Ahhh. Good point.
Removing the member from all lists is often the right thing, but consider a member who is actually active on lists, but bounces un-whitelisted mail and forgets to whitelist the site list. Then the password reminder bounces and he is removed from all lists.
Hm. I guess they'll have to live with that :)
Ralf Hildebrandt wrote:
- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net>:
Removing the member from all lists is often the right thing, but consider a member who is actually active on lists, but bounces un-whitelisted mail and forgets to whitelist the site list. Then the password reminder bounces and he is removed from all lists.
Hm. I guess they'll have to live with that :)
OK, but FYI, here's perhaps a better reason direct from BounceRunner
XXX We used to classify bounces to the site list as bounce events for every list, but this caused severe problems. Here's the scenario: aperson@example.com is a member of 4 lists, and a list owner of the foo list. example.com has an aggressive spam filter which rejects any message that is spam or contains spam as an attachment. Now, a spambot sends a piece of spam to the foo list, but since that spambot is not a member, the list holds the message for approval, and sends a notification to aperson@example.com as list owner. That notification contains a copy of the spam. Now example.com rejects the message, causing a bounce to be sent to the site list's bounce address. The bounce runner would then dutifully register a bounce for all 4 lists that aperson@example.com was a member of, and eventually that person would get disabled on all their lists. So now we ignore site list bounces. Ce La Vie for password reminder bounces.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
On Jun 3, 2009, at 12:50 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
XXX We used to classify bounces to the site list as bounce events for every list, but this caused severe problems. Here's the scenario: aperson@example.com is a member of 4 lists, and a list owner of the foo list. example.com has an aggressive spam filter which rejects any message that is spam or contains spam as an attachment. Now, a spambot sends a piece of spam to the foo list, but since that spambot is not a member, the list holds the message for approval, and sends a notification to aperson@example.com as list owner. That notification contains a copy of the spam. Now example.com rejects the message, causing a bounce to be sent to the site list's bounce address. The bounce runner would then dutifully register a bounce for all 4 lists that aperson@example.com was a member of, and eventually that person would get disabled on all their lists. So now we ignore site list bounces. Ce La Vie for password reminder bounces.
I hope we've all learned by now never to bounce spam back to the
"original" sender!
-Barry
--On 4 June 2009 08:13:00 -0400 Barry Warsaw <barry@list.org> wrote:
I hope we've all learned by now never to bounce spam back to the "original" sender!
Except when you have a positive spf lookup result. In which case the "original" sender probably is in a position to stop spamming you.
-- Ian Eiloart IT Services, University of Sussex 01273-873148 x3148 For new support requests, see http://www.sussex.ac.uk/its/help/
participants (7)
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Barry Warsaw -
Ian Eiloart -
Mark Sapiro -
Nicola Larosa -
Patrick Ben Koetter -
Ralf Hildebrandt -
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