Re: [Mailman-Developers] [Mailman-Users] OS X & Mailman & Python
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I'm including mailman-developers on this message, because I want to
discuss the issue of which Python versions to support.
On Sep 27, 2006, at 11:04 AM, Stubbs Jeff wrote:
Got a question. I picked up another Mac, so I'm going to rebuild my list server from scratch, using Postfix 2.3.3 and Mailman 2.1.9. The default python install supplied by Apple is version 2.3.5. Last week or so , I noticed the version 2.4.3 was available from the Python website in an OS X installer. This morning, I noticed that the 2.5 version was available. (whew, the developers must be sucking in the coffee).
All things being equal, would Mailman benefit from using the 2.5 version as opposed to Apple's 2.3.5?
The old server seemed to run fine, but I wouldn't mind upgrading python, if it wasn't going to be problematic.
My recommendation would be to run at least Python 2.4. Mailman 2.1.9
should run on Python 2.5, but earlier versions of Mailman won't.
While we still claim to be able to run Mailman 2.1 on versions of
Python back to 2.1, I believe we broke that claim in Mailman 2.1.9.
Does anybody care?
I would dearly love to drop support for Python 2.1 and Python 2.2
even in the Mailman 2.1 series. As I'm developing on OSX myself
these days, I can't even build these earlier versions of Python and
they haven't been supported by the PSF for years. In fact, Python
2.3 is no longer supported and I would even love to drop support for
Python 2.3 in Mailman 2.1.x, although I know we can't.
Then there is the question of what versions we support for Mailman
2.2, which is currently under development. Previously we've said
we'll support Python 2.3 but I think we should revisit that decision.
In summary my preferences would be:
Mailman 2.1.x supported on Python 2.3, 2.4, and 2.5. Drop support
for Python 2.1 and 2.2. We've done this accidentally in Mailman
2.1.9, so let's make it official.
Mailman 2.2 supported on Python 2.4 and 2.5.
- -Barry
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In summary my preferences would be:
Mailman 2.1.x supported on Python 2.3, 2.4, and 2.5. Drop support
for Python 2.1 and 2.2. We've done this accidentally in Mailman
2.1.9, so let's make it official.Mailman 2.2 supported on Python 2.4 and 2.5.
+1
-- Tokio Kikuchi, tkikuchi@is.kochi-u.ac.jp http://weather.is.kochi-u.ac.jp/
--On Wednesday, September 27, 2006 11:54 AM -0400 Barry Warsaw barry@python.org wrote:
Then there is the question of what versions we support for Mailman 2.2, which is currently under development. Previously we've said we'll support Python 2.3 but I think we should revisit that decision.
If you drop python 2.3, you drop RHEL4. It doesn't effect me personally, as I don't run mailman on my RHEL4 servers, but I suspect it would make many folks unhappy.
-- Carson
Barry Warsaw writes:
Mailman 2.2 supported on Python 2.4 and 2.5.
+1.
Mailman 2.1.x supported on Python 2.3, 2.4, and 2.5. Drop support
for Python 2.1 and 2.2. We've done this accidentally in Mailman
2.1.9, so let's make it official.
Would it be possible to maintain a rough list of Python-2.3-and-later features that are required for current Mailman as the requirements are added? That would at least give folks who think they need an older Python some idea of what would be involved in adapting their Python installation to Mailman needs.
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On Sep 27, 2006, at 9:29 PM, Carson Gaspar wrote:
--On Wednesday, September 27, 2006 11:54 AM -0400 Barry Warsaw barry@python.org wrote:
Then there is the question of what versions we support for Mailman 2.2, which is currently under development. Previously we've said we'll support Python 2.3 but I think we should revisit that decision.
If you drop python 2.3, you drop RHEL4. It doesn't effect me
personally, as I don't run mailman on my RHEL4 servers, but I suspect it would
make many folks unhappy.
I'm not up on the development/release plans of RHEL. When do you
think they might release a version with Python 2.4 support? The same
kind of goes for OS X, which ships with Python 2.3 on Tiger. I have
no idea what Leopard will ship with, but I'd have to hope that it
would be at least 2.4.x if not 2.5.x.
I guess my standard answers would be (In no particular order :)
- It's easy to build an appropriate Python on whatever *nix platform
you've got
- It's easy to build an appropriate Python on whatever *nix platform
- I'm sure there are RPMs available for Python 2.4
- RHEL5 will probably beat Mailman 2.2 :)
I suspect that Mailman won't be the only Python app out there
applying pressure to upgrade to a more modern (read "supported")
version of Python.
- -Barry
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--On Wednesday, September 27, 2006 10:09 PM -0400 Barry Warsaw barry@python.org wrote:
I'm not up on the development/release plans of RHEL. When do you think they might release a version with Python 2.4 support? The same kind of goes for OS X, which ships with Python 2.3 on Tiger. I have no idea what Leopard will ship with, but I'd have to hope that it would be at least 2.4.x if not 2.5.x.
RHEL5 is in beta. It currently has python-2.4.3 (humorously, the RPM is still called python-2.4.3-14.fc6). As I said, _I_ don't care about mailman on RHEL4 (I run it on Solaris x86 as I like servers that don't crash), I just wanted to raise the issue. Feel free to say "legacy OS, legacy mailman". But keeping 2.3 support for future 2.1.x security/bugfix releases would be a good idea.
-- Carson
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On Sep 27, 2006, at 9:32 PM, stephen@xemacs.org wrote:
Mailman 2.1.x supported on Python 2.3, 2.4, and 2.5. Drop support for Python 2.1 and 2.2. We've done this accidentally in Mailman 2.1.9, so let's make it official.
Would it be possible to maintain a rough list of Python-2.3-and-later features that are required for current Mailman as the requirements are added? That would at least give folks who think they need an older Python some idea of what would be involved in adapting their Python installation to Mailman needs.
Mark Sapiro wrote this message describing the unintended breakage in
Mailman 2.1.9:
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2006-September/ 053290.html
So the big difference between 2.1 and 2.2 was the unification of
classes and types, which also changed the built-in factory functions
like int() and str() to be types instead of functions.
No one should use Python 2.2 for anything really. It was a fairly
radical release and many of the new features didn't stabilize until
Python 2.3. The main reason I want to drop Python 2.1 and 2.2 is
that I simply can't build them on OS X any more, so I can't
effectively test them. I'm not sure if Tokio and Mark are in the
same boat though. I can't build Python 2.3 either, but at least
there, I don't have to (thanks Apple!).
As for Mailman 2.2, there are lots and lots of features I want to use
from Python 2.4. Built-in sets, generators, PEP 292 $-strings
(pioneered in Mailman), decorators, and the subprocess module to name
a few. Of the new-in-Python 2.5 features I'd use but can live
without, probably conditional expressions absolute imports, and the
with statement are the most interesting. Oh, and the built-in
sqlite3 package <wink>.
http://www.python.org/doc/2.3/whatsnew/whatsnew23.html http://www.python.org/doc/2.4/whatsnew/whatsnew24.html http://www.python.org/doc/2.5/whatsnew/whatsnew25.html
- -Barry
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On Sep 27, 2006, at 10:19 PM, Carson Gaspar wrote:
--On Wednesday, September 27, 2006 10:09 PM -0400 Barry Warsaw barry@python.org wrote:
I'm not up on the development/release plans of RHEL. When do you think they might release a version with Python 2.4 support? The same kind of goes for OS X, which ships with Python 2.3 on Tiger. I have no idea what Leopard will ship with, but I'd have to hope that it would be at least 2.4.x if not 2.5.x.
RHEL5 is in beta. It currently has python-2.4.3 (humorously, the
RPM is still called python-2.4.3-14.fc6). As I said, _I_ don't care about
mailman on RHEL4 (I run it on Solaris x86 as I like servers that don't crash),
:) Yeah, unless someone wants to donate an Xserve, I'll probably
keep my production Gentoo x86 box around for a while longer. I'm
still running my own lists and websites on that machine, but I won't
do development on it.
I just wanted to raise the issue. Feel free to say "legacy OS, legacy mailman". But keeping 2.3 support for future 2.1.x security/bugfix
releases would be a good idea.
Oh yes, sorry I wasn't clear. We'll definitely continue to support
Python 2.3 for Mailman 2.1.x. We'll drop Python 2.3 for Mailman
2.2. I'll write this up in the wiki.
- -Barry
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On Sep 27, 2006, at 8:29 PM, Tokio Kikuchi wrote:
In summary my preferences would be:
Mailman 2.1.x supported on Python 2.3, 2.4, and 2.5. Drop support for Python 2.1 and 2.2. We've done this accidentally in Mailman 2.1.9, so let's make it official.
Mailman 2.2 supported on Python 2.4 and 2.5.
+1
Cool, it's official then. :)
http://wiki.list.org/x/8Q http://wiki.list.org/x/IQ
- -Barry
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On 9/27/06 6:29 PM, "Carson Gaspar" carson@taltos.org wrote:
--On Wednesday, September 27, 2006 11:54 AM -0400 Barry Warsaw barry@python.org wrote:
Then there is the question of what versions we support for Mailman 2.2, which is currently under development. Previously we've said we'll support Python 2.3 but I think we should revisit that decision.
If you drop python 2.3, you drop RHEL4. It doesn't effect me personally, as I don't run mailman on my RHEL4 servers, but I suspect it would make many folks unhappy.
Well, to run Mailman later than 2.1.5 (with backports) (I think it is) in RHEL 4 (or, therefore, CentOS-4), one is looking at building Mailman from source rather than using official packages. If one is capable of doing that, one is also capable of doing an alternative install of a newer Python, and telling one's Mailman to use that.
Unofficial packages would have to take the Python version problem into account.
So while the requirement is a nuisance, it's not a show stopper IMHO.
--John
participants (5)
-
Barry Warsaw -
Carson Gaspar -
John W. Baxter -
stephen＠xemacs.org -
Tokio Kikuchi