On Tue 18 Mar, Thomas Wouters thomas@xs4all.net wrote:
On Wed, Mar 12, 2003 at 12:44:46PM +0100, CARTER Anthony wrote:
I would like to know if there is any way that we can remove the "USA" bit from the language options? For example, instead of "English (USA)" have just "English"
Well, you can certainly do that for your own Mailman installation; just search for 'USA' and remove the string where you see it :) Whether we want that by default in the distributed Mailman is something else. I'd personally be against it, because there is a real difference between, for instance, English for the British and English for the Americans. Calling it English (USA) at least makes it clear which version it is, even if there isn't (yet) a British variant. Or is there ?
I think having "English (USA)" appear as the only available language is more annoying for non-Americans than any Americanisms that might be in Mailman (and which are to be expected in most software anyway). So far, I've only noticed one, the spelling of "internationalisation", and that only appears on an admin page. Unless alternative English translations appear I would prefer the option to just be "English".
To the original poster, if you haven't already discovered this: The languages can be renamed at the bottom of the Mailman/Defaults.py file. "internationalization" appears in Mailman/Gui/Language.py
Roger
On Fri, 2003-04-11 at 16:02, Roger Lynn wrote:
I think having "English (USA)" appear as the only available language is more annoying for non-Americans than any Americanisms that might be in Mailman (and which are to be expected in most software anyway). So far, I've only noticed one, the spelling of "internationalisation", and that only appears on an admin page. Unless alternative English translations appear I would prefer the option to just be "English".
Maybe that should read 'anti-Americans' instead of 'non-Americans'. Ha ha. Personally, I like it the way it is.
How hard would it really be for someone really concerned about the lack of a non-USA English option to port a non-USA English (UK I assume) and so add to the project rather than just trying to relabel what is clearly in reality American English? It doesn't look like more than a few hours work to create a new language directory, copy over 'en' contents, then vim through them. One could even run any blocks of text through 'worldlingo.com' or whatever (if they differentiate the UK and US English) then eyeball scan the output.
It seems fairly clear that the person who wrote the 'en' files was American. Maybe not. But the fact remains he/she put in the time and effort to represent American English. Why should it be relabeled when the best thing to do would be for someone, probably a UK or resident of a prior UK colony to create a UK version. Then those who speak the various pidgin versions of English around the world can create their own ports.
Am I missing something or does there seem to be a metallic political tang to the bringing up of this issue of American English being labeled 'English (USA)' in the interface?
Why would my approach of other's creating the ports they want to see not more valid than relabeling US English as mere English if this is perceived to be the case?
What I find ironic is that I am strongly of the mind that if American English had been labeled as merely 'English' to start with that someone out there would have been offended about "Americans *assuming* that their brand of English is standard! I want it labeled 'English (USA) so that people are not deceived!".
To show my good will, I would attempt a port from US to UK English. I think I know most of the spelling issues, but some of the terminology variance might escape me unless there are lots of places to use the word 'lorry' instead of 'truck' in the 'en' directory.
Oh yeah, almost forgot. I suppose we need a Canadian English also. I don't think I'd do very well on that. As far as I know it is the same as UK which shows how little I know, I am sure.
:^)
Marty
Since John, Ken, and I are all American, I think it's only mildly surprising <wink> that all the source code human readable text, and the en templates are written in American English.
As for supporting alternative dialects, there is a fairly concrete standard in the i18n world, however Mailman doesn't support it very well. A language specification, e.g. in HTTP's HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGES header, can have a language, a country, and a variant. An example might be en_US or de_DE_PREEURO. In Mailman we have pt and pt_BR for Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese.
However, what you'd want is for pt_BR for example to simply contain the overrides to pt, or en_UK to contain just the overrides for en. That way a British translation of Mailman would only need those few entries that are different than American English (glossing over en_US for now). I definitely want to add this in a future release.
For now, a non-American English translation would have to do all the work that any other translation would have to do (see README-I18N.en) except that you have an advantage. If you leave a message or template untranslated, it uses the default source string, which in this case is American English. :)
I'm not in favor of changing the label from "English (USA)".
-Barry
The changing of the label is only in this particular instance, not in the source...I never intended to step on any toes about this. We don't really care if the are americanisms in the app, just not a blatant (USA) in there. It is the European ******* (hashed but consider it a big and important part of europe) afterall ;) ;)
Anyway, I removed the label from the Defaults.py file, and things seem to be fine...
Thanks, Anthony Carter Cordis Operations
On Sunday 20 April 2003 02:19, Barry Warsaw wrote:
Since John, Ken, and I are all American, I think it's only mildly surprising <wink> that all the source code human readable text, and the en templates are written in American English.
As for supporting alternative dialects, there is a fairly concrete standard in the i18n world, however Mailman doesn't support it very well. A language specification, e.g. in HTTP's HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGES header, can have a language, a country, and a variant. An example might be en_US or de_DE_PREEURO. In Mailman we have pt and pt_BR for Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese.
However, what you'd want is for pt_BR for example to simply contain the overrides to pt, or en_UK to contain just the overrides for en. That way a British translation of Mailman would only need those few entries that are different than American English (glossing over en_US for now). I definitely want to add this in a future release.
For now, a non-American English translation would have to do all the work that any other translation would have to do (see README-I18N.en) except that you have an advantage. If you leave a message or template untranslated, it uses the default source string, which in this case is American English. :)
I'm not in favor of changing the label from "English (USA)".
-Barry
Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
Since John, Ken, and I are all American, I think it's only mildly surprising <wink> that all the source code human readable text, and the en templates are written in American English.
From my European perspective I'd say that that's not a problem for most people around here. Well it's possible that some folks in the UK might care enough to do what it takes to "fix" the spelling from their perspective, but in the majority of Europe (where English is not spoken natively anyway) the locale-dependant details of spelling don't matter at all.
I'm not in favor of changing the label from "English (USA)".
The "English (USA)" label *is* a problem. Please don't underestimate the strong anti-USA feelings in significant parts of the world. For example here in Switzerland, many people feel that US politicians and lawyers have blackmailed the Swiss banks for a couple of billion dollars a few years ago. Many other countries have their own historic roots for bitter feelings towards the USA. Then there are *many* people in many countries who are upset about more recent events that I don't want to mention explicitly in order to avoid sparking a flame war. For example, think of an Arab with a good command of the English language who'd like to subscribe to a technical mailing list.
Wouldn't the "English (USA)" label feel like a slap in the face for such a user?
Greetings, Norbert.
-- Founder & Steering Committee member of http://gnu.org/projects/dotgnu/ Free Software Business Strategy Guide ---> http://FreeStrategy.info Norbert Bollow, Weidlistr.18, CH-8624 Gruet (near Zurich, Switzerland) Tel +41 1 972 20 59 Fax +41 1 972 20 69 http://norbert.ch
Extremely good point Norbert...
Televisions were invented in Britain...Doesn't mean that every tele has to start up with a union jack on its screen...huh?
Besides, for my purpose it wasn't cause we dislike the USA, it is cause it is a European Union institution that requires to be distinguished as a seperate entity completely to the US. It is politics, nothing more, nothing less...
Anthony
On Wednesday 23 April 2003 12:01, Norbert Bollow wrote:
Since John, Ken, and I are all American, I think it's only mildly surprising <wink> that all the source code human readable text, and the en templates are written in American English.
From my European perspective I'd say that that's not a problem for most people around here. Well it's possible that some folks in the UK might care enough to do what it takes to "fix" the spelling from their perspective, but in the majority of Europe (where English is not spoken natively anyway) the locale-dependant details of spelling don't matter at all.
I'm not in favor of changing the label from "English (USA)".
The "English (USA)" label *is* a problem. Please don't underestimate the strong anti-USA feelings in significant parts of the world. For example here in Switzerland, many people feel that US politicians and lawyers have blackmailed the Swiss banks for a couple of billion dollars a few years ago. Many other countries have their own historic roots for bitter feelings towards the USA. Then there are *many* people in many countries who are upset about more recent events that I don't want to mention explicitly in order to avoid sparking a flame war. For example, think of an Arab with a good command of the English language who'd like to subscribe to a technical mailing list.
Wouldn't the "English (USA)" label feel like a slap in the face for such a user?
Greetings, Norbert.
On Wed, 2003-04-23 at 04:51, CARTER Anthony wrote:
Televisions were invented in Britain...Doesn't mean that every tele has to start up with a union jack on its screen...huh?
Televisions invented in Britain? Only if you believe Charles Babbage "invented" electronic computers. What was more important to the Information Revolution? Babbages mechanical Difference Engine? Or the electronic silicon chip?
As for television, see the link below,
Key excerpt: “Zworykin had a patent, but Farnsworth had a picture…”
Both were Americans.
<http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae408.cfm>
Many were involved in the development of the idea, including important British contributions, but the first working televisions, in the modern sense, that is electronic, not mechanical, were decidedly American.
And when they start up, they do not show the Stars and Stripes, I might add.
Not to start a peeing contest, but after the incredibly raw deal that Philo Farnsworth got in his life I can't stand by and see him bent over once again.
Marty
Excuse me but:
http://www.hastings.uk.net/latest/stories/050502/baird.html
I know this cause I lived in hastings and in London Road there is a plaque on one of the building stating:"Television was born here"...
I quote:
Baird famously transmitted the first television pictures in a workshop above the Hastings Town Centre Queen's Arcade.
I quote from http://www.hastings.uk.net/famouspeople/logiebaird.html
"John Logie Baird was born in 1888, Helensburgh in Scotland. " and
"Baird filed a patent for his television design in early July 1923. It was not until 1924 that he had an actual working prototype. Dubbed the 'televisor', Baird had used an old tea chest as a base, mounted a motor and attached a home-made Nipkow disc, a cardboard circle cut from a hat box. A darning needle became a spindle, and a discarded biscuit box made a suitable lamp housing. Apart from the motor, his greatest investment was a few bull's-eye lenses bought for four pence a piece. Glued together with sealing wax and string, it was a precarious contraption, but it worked. In his room, he managed to transmit a silhouette of a Maltese cross two or three yards to a receiver. The image was beautiful to Baird, and proved his basic assumptions were correct."
And from your own site:
"Another player of the times was John Logie Baird, a Scottish engineer and entrepreneur who 'achieved his first transmissions of simple face shapes in 1924 using mechanical television. On March 25, 1925, Baird held his first public demonstration of 'television' at the London department store Selfridges on Oxford Street in London. In this demonstration, he had not yet obtained adequate half-tones in the moving pictures, and only silhouettes were visible.' - MZTV "
But Baird's work was the first showing of a working model (although mechanical) of the principles of television...
Anthony
On Wednesday 23 April 2003 17:39, Marty Galyean wrote:
On Wed, 2003-04-23 at 04:51, CARTER Anthony wrote:
Televisions were invented in Britain...Doesn't mean that every tele has to start up with a union jack on its screen...huh?
Televisions invented in Britain? Only if you believe Charles Babbage "invented" electronic computers. What was more important to the Information Revolution? Babbages mechanical Difference Engine? Or the electronic silicon chip?
As for television, see the link below,
Key excerpt: “Zworykin had a patent, but Farnsworth had a picture…”
Both were Americans.
<http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae408.cfm>
Many were involved in the development of the idea, including important British contributions, but the first working televisions, in the modern sense, that is electronic, not mechanical, were decidedly American.
And when they start up, they do not show the Stars and Stripes, I might add.
Not to start a peeing contest, but after the incredibly raw deal that Philo Farnsworth got in his life I can't stand by and see him bent over once again.
Marty
On Wed, 2003-04-23 at 06:01, Norbert Bollow wrote:
Wouldn't the "English (USA)" label feel like a slap in the face for such a user?
As much as I'm itching to, I really do /not/ want to get into a political discussion on this mailing list. I'm happy to discuss off-list as time allows with anybody who could give a shit what /I/ think. :)
Here's a compromise that might actually be more useful technically. Let's say every language tag in that pull down had the language code appended to it, which would include any country and variant code, if used. These codes would not be translated, since the RFCs specify them as English letters.
Thus, "English (USA)" would change to "English (en)", and we'd see other entries like "France (fr)" and "Portuguese (pt_BR)". You'd still see "(en)" in the Japanese translation too. Would this be too jarring for non-English, non-European users?
-Barry
Barry Warsaw wrote:
On Wed, 2003-04-23 at 06:01, Norbert Bollow wrote:
Wouldn't the "English (USA)" label feel like a slap in the face for such a user?
Here's a compromise that might actually be more useful technically. Let's say every language tag in that pull down had the language code appended to it, which would include any country and variant code, if used. These codes would not be translated, since the RFCs specify them as English letters.
Thus, "English (USA)" would change to "English (en)", and we'd see other entries like "France (fr)" and "Portuguese (pt_BR)". You'd still see "(en)" in the Japanese translation too. Would this be too jarring for non-English, non-European users?
Why not stick to the standard English language names ?
E.g. 'de': 'German', 'de-at': 'German/Austria', 'de-de': 'German/Germany', 'de-ch': 'German/Switzerland', 'dz': 'Bhutani', 'el': 'Greek', 'en': 'English', 'en-gb': 'English/United Kingdom', 'en-us': 'English/United States', 'eo': 'Esperanto', 'es': 'Spanish', 'es-ar': 'Spanish/Argentina', 'es-es': 'Spanish/Spain', 'es-co': 'Spanish/Colombia', 'es-mx': 'Spanish/Mexico',
See "Names of Languages - ISO 639" and "Language Tag - RFC 1766/3066" for more background information.
Resources:
- http://rfc.sunsite.dk/rfc/rfc3066.html
- http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/langhome.html
- http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-tags-- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com
Professional Python Software directly from the Source (#1, Apr 23 2003)
Python/Zope Products & Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ... http://python.egenix.com/
EuroPython 2003, Charleroi, Belgium: 62 days left
Barry Warsaw wrote:
On Wed, 2003-04-23 at 08:30, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
Why not stick to the standard English language names ?
Good idea, thanks for the link!
Here's the complete list I'm using (collected from various sources):
# # Mapping tables # # Keys must language names. The tables themselves must map # ISO codes using lowercase letters only to language names. #
Names = { 'English': { 'aa': 'Afar', 'ab': 'Abkhazian', 'af': 'Afrikaans', 'am': 'Amharic', 'ar': 'Arabic', 'as': 'Assamese', 'ay': 'Aymara', 'az': 'Azerbaijani', 'ba': 'Bashkir', 'be': 'Byelorussian', 'bg': 'Bulgarian', 'bh': 'Bihari', 'bi': 'Bislama', 'bn': 'Bengali', 'bo': 'Tibetan', 'br': 'Breton', 'ca': 'Catalan', 'co': 'Corsican', 'cs': 'Czech', 'cy': 'Welsh', 'da': 'Danish', 'de': 'German', 'de-at': 'German/Austria', 'de-de': 'German/Germany', 'de-ch': 'German/Switzerland', 'dz': 'Bhutani', 'el': 'Greek', 'en': 'English', 'en-gb': 'English/United Kingdom', 'en-us': 'English/United States', 'eo': 'Esperanto', 'es': 'Spanish', 'es-ar': 'Spanish/Argentina', 'es-es': 'Spanish/Spain', 'es-co': 'Spanish/Colombia', 'es-mx': 'Spanish/Mexico', 'et': 'Estonian', 'eu': 'Basque', 'fa': 'Persian', 'fi': 'Finnish', 'fj': 'Fiji', 'fo': 'Faroese', 'fr': 'French', 'fr-be': 'French/Belgium', 'fr-ca': 'French/Canada', 'fr-fr': 'French/France', 'fr-ch': 'French/Switzerland', 'fy': 'Frisian', 'ga': 'Irish', 'gd': 'Scots Gaelic', 'gl': 'Galician', 'gn': 'Guarani', 'gu': 'Gujarati', 'ha': 'Hausa', 'he': 'Hebrew', 'hi': 'Hindi', 'hr': 'Croatian', 'hu': 'Hungarian', 'hy': 'Armenian', 'ia': 'Interlingua', 'id': 'Indonesian', 'ie': 'Interlingue', 'ik': 'Inupiak', 'is': 'Icelandic', 'it': 'Italian', 'iu': 'Inuktitut', 'ja': 'Japanese', 'jw': 'Javanese', 'ka': 'Georgian', 'kk': 'Kazakh', 'kl': 'Greenlandic', 'km': 'Cambodian', 'kn': 'Kannada', 'ko': 'Korean', 'ks': 'Kashmiri', 'ku': 'Kurdish', 'ky': 'Kirghiz', 'la': 'Latin', 'ln': 'Lingala', 'lo': 'Laothian', 'lt': 'Lithuanian', 'lv': 'Latvian', 'mg': 'Malagasy', 'mi': 'Maori', 'mk': 'Macedonian', 'ml': 'Malayalam', 'mn': 'Mongolian', 'mo': 'Moldavian', 'mr': 'Marathi', 'ms': 'Malay', 'mt': 'Maltese', 'my': 'Burmese', 'na': 'Nauru', 'ne': 'Nepali', 'nl': 'Dutch', 'nl-be': 'Dutch/Belgium', 'no': 'Norwegian', 'oc': 'Occitan', 'om': '(Afan) Oromo', 'or': 'Oriya', 'pa': 'Punjabi', 'pl': 'Polish', 'ps': 'Pashto, Pushto', 'pt': 'Portuguese', 'pt-br': 'Portuguese/Brazil', 'qu': 'Quechua', 'rm': 'Rhaeto-Romance', 'rn': 'Kirundi', 'ro': 'Romanian', 'ru': 'Russian', 'rw': 'Kinyarwanda', 'sa': 'Sanskrit', 'sd': 'Sindhi', 'sg': 'Sangho', 'sh': 'Serbo-Croatian', 'si': 'Sinhalese', 'sk': 'Slovak', 'sl': 'Slovenian', 'sm': 'Samoan', 'sn': 'Shona', 'so': 'Somali', 'sq': 'Albanian', 'sr': 'Serbian', 'ss': 'Siswati', 'st': 'Sesotho', 'su': 'Sundanese', 'sv': 'Swedish', 'sw': 'Swahili', 'ta': 'Tamil', 'te': 'Telugu', 'tg': 'Tajik', 'th': 'Thai', 'ti': 'Tigrinya', 'tk': 'Turkmen', 'tl': 'Tagalog', 'tn': 'Setswana', 'to': 'Tonga', 'tr': 'Turkish', 'ts': 'Tsonga', 'tt': 'Tatar', 'tw': 'Twi', 'ug': 'Uighur', 'uk': 'Ukrainian', 'ur': 'Urdu', 'uz': 'Uzbek', 'vi': 'Vietnamese', 'vo': 'Volapuk', 'wo': 'Wolof', 'xh': 'Xhosa', 'yi': 'Yiddish', 'yo': 'Yoruba', 'za': 'Zhuang', 'zh': 'Chinese', 'zh-cn': 'Chinese/China', 'zh-tw': 'Chinese/Taiwan', 'zu': 'Zulu', }, }
-- Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com
Professional Python Software directly from the Source (#1, Apr 23 2003)
Python/Zope Products & Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ... http://python.egenix.com/
EuroPython 2003, Charleroi, Belgium: 62 days left
mercoledì, 23 aprile 2003 alle 14:57:10, M.-A. Lemburg ha scritto:
Here's the complete list I'm using (collected from various sources):
I believe the Mandrake's installation CD has an even more complete list, e.g. they have Italian, Italian/Italy and Italian/Switzerland
-- This signature intentionally left blank
Simone Piunno wrote:
mercoledì, 23 aprile 2003 alle 14:57:10, M.-A. Lemburg ha scritto:
Here's the complete list I'm using (collected from various sources):
I believe the Mandrake's installation CD has an even more complete list, e.g. they have Italian, Italian/Italy and Italian/Switzerland
Additions are appreciated. I haven't yet found the "definite" list on the net... just adding bits and pieces as they come along.
Thanks,
Marc-Andre Lemburg eGenix.com
Professional Python Software directly from the Source (#1, Apr 23 2003)
Python/Zope Products & Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/ mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ... http://python.egenix.com/
EuroPython 2003, Charleroi, Belgium: 62 days left
In our project, SPIP (www.uzine.net/spip), we're using a similar list, but in which every language is identified in its own writing. When two translations belong to the same ISO family, we just use the branches pt_BR and pt_PT, whereas when only one translation belongs to the family we use just the family code (and name), unflavoured. This can help groups join in a common effort, then split *if* needed. (However, we don't have that much experience to say if it works; but it's really an exciting process).
BTW, and slightly off-topic, the usual translation tools were really too clumsy to use (you can't expect translators to know which one to choose, and to install it and understand it -- at least it raises the bar too high --, plus you want to have a team effort, so you need people to be able to tap the same translation database). We finally decided to build a translation website with lists of "strings awaiting for translation" in every language, and a web interface to edit them. It works really well.
@ M.-A. Lemburg <mal@lemburg.com> :
Barry Warsaw wrote:
On Wed, 2003-04-23 at 08:30, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
Why not stick to the standard English language names ?
Good idea, thanks for the link!
Here's the complete list I'm using (collected from various sources):
# # Mapping tables # # Keys must language names. The tables themselves must map # ISO codes using lowercase letters only to language names. #
-- Fil
On Wed, 2003-04-23 at 16:19, Fil wrote:
In our project, SPIP (www.uzine.net/spip), we're using a similar list, but in which every language is identified in its own writing. When two translations belong to the same ISO family, we just use the branches pt_BR and pt_PT, whereas when only one translation belongs to the family we use just the family code (and name), unflavoured. This can help groups join in a common effort, then split *if* needed. (However, we don't have that much experience to say if it works; but it's really an exciting process).
Interesting, you'll have to let us know how it works. :)
BTW, and slightly off-topic, the usual translation tools were really too clumsy to use (you can't expect translators to know which one to choose, and to install it and understand it -- at least it raises the bar too high --, plus you want to have a team effort, so you need people to be able to tap the same translation database). We finally decided to build a translation website with lists of "strings awaiting for translation" in every language, and a web interface to edit them. It works really well.
We have plans to do something similar, initially for Zope, but ideally (at least in my mind) open source projects in general:
http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ComponentArchitecture/Translation...
Now we'll see if we get some free time to actually work on this. ;)
-Barry
In our project, SPIP (www.uzine.net/spip), we're using a similar list, Interesting, you'll have to let us know how it works. :)
Currently we have 11 languages and 2 more are almost ready. What's interesting is that the web interface includes arabic translation, with some bidi trouble ;)
The first split to occur will probably be between two languages of the cpf family (French Creols and Pidgins) - the Reunion (which is complete) and the Caribbean types (which is starting).
and a web interface to edit them. It works really well. We have plans to do something similar, initially for Zope, but ideally (at least in my mind) open source projects in general: http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ComponentArchitecture/Translation... Now we'll see if we get some free time to actually work on this. ;)
I remember we had discussed this idea a while ago on the Mailman list. I'm glad to see that it became a wiki think. If you want our code, you can have it (but eeeek it's php).
-- Fil
On Wed, 2003-04-23 at 04:01, Norbert Bollow wrote:
Wouldn't the "English (USA)" label feel like a slap in the face for such a user?
Why should it be a problem if it's USA English? Coddling the world is a poor substitute for truth. If it said "USA is #1!" I could perhaps see your point, but it is simply stating that the English is of a USA type.
What ever happened to rationality? When did emotional moping take precedence over sanity?
Marty
Barry Warsaw <barry@python.org> wrote:
Thus, "English (USA)" would change to "English (en)"
That'd IMO be perfect!
and we'd see other entries like "France (fr)" and "Portuguese (pt_BR)".
Actually, why not make that "Portuguese (pt)"?
I think that'd increase the acceptance of Mailman in Portugal :-)
You'd still see "(en)" in the Japanese translation too.
Sounds good. That'll mean that I'll not be totally lost if I ever get on a list at Mailman site with Japanese as default language :-)
Would this be too jarring for non-English, non-European users?
I don't think so, but of course I can't speak for them. :-)
Marty Galyean <marty@penguinarts.com> wrote:
What ever happened to rationality? When did emotional moping take precedence over sanity?
Please accept it as a rational fact that many people will often react emotionally to what they see. And please accept it as a rational fact that the ways in which superpowers often treat weaker countries tend to make a lot of people in those weaker countries emotionally upset.
On Wed, 2003-04-23 at 04:01, Norbert Bollow wrote:
Wouldn't the "English (USA)" label feel like a slap in the face for such a user?
Why should it be a problem if it's USA English?
I made very clear that I don't consider it a problem that USA English is used. The problem is the "(USA)" label. It serves no useful purpose in the user interface for subscribers because the difference between various English-language locales is not important enough that users would want to be bothered with choosing between the English/USA and the English/UK locale. (If both locales were available, it would make sense though for the list-owner or site-admin to set the Mailman user interface to use the same style of spelling that is used in other list-related documentation).
My point is that the Mailman UI should avoid sticking labels on stuff that needlessly evoke nationalistic emotions.
Greetings, Norbert.
-- Founder & Steering Committee member of http://gnu.org/projects/dotgnu/ Free Software Business Strategy Guide ---> http://FreeStrategy.info Norbert Bollow, Weidlistr.18, CH-8624 Gruet (near Zurich, Switzerland) Tel +41 1 972 20 59 Fax +41 1 972 20 69 http://norbert.ch
On Wed, 2003-04-23 at 12:59, Norbert Bollow wrote:
and we'd see other entries like "France (fr)" and "Portuguese (pt_BR)".
Actually, why not make that "Portuguese (pt)"?
Actually, we have both! :)
You'd still see "(en)" in the Japanese translation too.
Sounds good. That'll mean that I'll not be totally lost if I ever get on a list at Mailman site with Japanese as default language :-)
And now you've discovered my ulterior motive for my compromise position! When I'm debugging Japanese, Korean, or Russian, I have to look for those parentheses to get back to English. I've memorize the order of links in the Categories columns but still haven't managed to do the same on the language pull down. :)
-Barry
On Wed, 2003-04-23 at 10:59, Norbert Bollow wrote:
What ever happened to rationality? When did emotional moping take precedence over sanity?
Please accept it as a rational fact that many people will often react emotionally to what they see. And please accept it as a rational fact that the ways in which superpowers often treat weaker countries tend to make a lot of people in those weaker countries emotionally upset.
Ok. I didn't say it was not a fact that they may become upset. What I dispute is whether they are responsible for being upset over what they read or whether the writer is responsible. I, like most others who value Liberty, hold adults responsible for thier emotion and think that the State/Collective/Whatever should decidedly NOT be in the business of managing individuals emotions as that is a prelude to a very deep tyranny involving "thought crime" and such. I give up trying to explain. I cannot argue against the "Earth as a Big Kindergarten" theory of Socialism from which the "emotionally upset" argument seems to stem.
Marty
Barry
Can we put a cap on this before people decide that they have better things to do than develop Mailman.
I'm sure there is mailing list for naive political rants but I would prefer not to be subscribed to it.
If that list is the Mailman-Developers list them I'm off!
Richard
At 18:41 23/04/2003, Marty Galyean wrote:
On Wed, 2003-04-23 at 10:59, Norbert Bollow wrote:
What ever happened to rationality? When did emotional moping take precedence over sanity?
Please accept it as a rational fact that many people will often react emotionally to what they see. And please accept it as a rational fact that the ways in which superpowers often treat weaker countries tend to make a lot of people in those weaker countries emotionally upset.
Ok. I didn't say it was not a fact that they may become upset. What I dispute is whether they are responsible for being upset over what they read or whether the writer is responsible. I, like most others who value Liberty, hold adults responsible for thier emotion and think that the State/Collective/Whatever should decidedly NOT be in the business of managing individuals emotions as that is a prelude to a very deep tyranny involving "thought crime" and such. I give up trying to explain. I cannot argue against the "Earth as a Big Kindergarten" theory of Socialism from which the "emotionally upset" argument seems to stem.
Marty
participants (11)
-
Barry Warsaw -
Bob Puff＠NLE -
CARTER Anthony -
Fil -
M.-A. Lemburg -
Marty Galyean -
Norbert Bollow -
Norbert Bollow -
Richard Barrett -
Roger Lynn -
Simone Piunno