On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:21:26 -0700 somuchfun <somuchfun@atlantismail.com> wrote:

This is not the point here, J.C.

Actually, it is very precisely the point.

As this message is repetition so I'll likely be ending my participation in this thread with this message.

The important point is the fact that mailman did introduce a new way of handling bounces without a way to opt-out of this new way.

Yup.

Normally every software package that introduces a new way of doing a certain task (opposed to a complete new functionality) there is an option to opt-out and continue "the old way" until all proper changes have been done.

I'm sure that Barry et al would have welcomed your patches. I'm also sure that Barry et al would have welcomed funding by you or cPanel to do the appropriate work. Equally I'm sure that Barry et al would have welcomed an email from cPanel mentioning that they don't support plus addressing and could the Mailman README be updated with a more strongly phrased warning?

But, none of these things happened.

Take cPanel for example, they have still not gotten around to make the proper adjustments to their highly complex environment and they are used hundreds of thousands of times around the world by web hosting companies.

Yup.

Right now people are unsubscribed because of this all over the place for no apparent reason (from the view of the user). The only way to not end up in trouble in this environment is to turn off bounce handling completely in mailman 2.1.5...

Or to have not installed/upgraded_to 2.1.5 in the first place. Nobody pointed a gun at their heads. These are free choices, freely made, freely paid for.

... So looking at this, do you still think it was wise to introduce VERP bounce probes by default and by force with no choice?

Frankly I just don't think it is very important. I see it as a nice-to-have on all scales:

"Hey, it would have been nice if the release docs said something a bit more blatant about requiring plus addressing supports in the local MTA. You know, some CAPS or something."

"Yeah, you're right that would have been better to put in CAPs or something. But we didn't hide it, it was in the docs."

"Oh yeah."

"Wanna go get a beer?"

"Sure!"

-- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live.