Mailman & CPanel?
I recently received a message about problems with Mailman and CPanel. I don't know anything about CPanel, or why Mailman and CPanel might not be working together, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't be interested in helping to make sure this is still a viable solution. I know a lot of people use Mailman under CPanel, and I think that's a worthwhile thing to keep available.
I'm perplexed by something the message said though:
After many complaints, support at the host company said this: "Well,
mailman has just released a statement that they will not support
CPanel-based mailman installations anymore due to the fact that the
CPanel developers have not correctly implemented their solution and
causing it to fail, so there isn't much we can do either if both mailman
an cpanel developers do not support it. CPanel will most likely be
discontinuing it from all servers, too."
There are many things I don't understand about this, but let's start with "mailman has just released a statement...". I'm pretty sure /I/ didn't release such a statement, so unless someone has hijacked or forged my address, I don't believe this is accurate. :)
Does anybody know anything about this? I'd like to get the record corrected: I have nothing against supporting CPanel in principle, and I'd be willing to learn more about what the problems were, and if there was anything we could do in Mailman to make this combination continue to work.
Cheers, -Barry
On Monday, September 22, 2003, at 03:32 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
I recently received a message about problems with Mailman and CPanel.
www.cpanel.net
It's a commercial tool ($1500/CPU, roughly) for gui access to administration of things. Basically seems designed for the colo/hosting market. One of the tools they've built a widget for is Mailman. That widget seems broken on at least one site.
helping to make sure this is still a viable solution. I know a lot of people use Mailman under CPanel, and I think that's a worthwhile thing to keep available.
I think, given it's a commercial product, that we don't have much responsibility ot make sure cpanel works, not unless they pay for us to support it. They've taken Mailman, attached their system to manage it, and so it's up to cpanel to make sure cpanel works.
I'm perplexed by something the message said though:
After many complaints, support at the host company said this:"Well, mailman has just released a statement that they will not support CPanel-based mailman installations anymore
so am I. Not sure who might have said that. I think the appropriate response is really "we have no relationship with cPanel, and so it's up to cpanel to make sure the product it sells works, and the Mailman team has never been involved with cpanel in any way"
Does anybody know anything about this?
I've seen people asking about it on ListOwners. I've kept my head down because I didn't know what you'd said/done, but it sort of sounds like it's either the cPanel folks trying to blame Mailman for its own problems, or an ISP trying to blame cPanel and/or mailman. I know we've never explicitly supported cPanel in the mailman projects. it seems like cPanel is the crew to bring this up with, not us.
On Mon, 2003-09-22 at 18:49, Chuq Von Rospach wrote:
Does anybody know anything about this?
I've seen people asking about it on ListOwners. I've kept my head down because I didn't know what you'd said/done, but it sort of sounds like it's either the cPanel folks trying to blame Mailman for its own problems, or an ISP trying to blame cPanel and/or mailman. I know we've never explicitly supported cPanel in the mailman projects. it seems like cPanel is the crew to bring this up with, not us.
Ah, thanks for the info Chuq. I think you've got the right take on things, except that I'd add this: if the cPanel developers have specific issues with Mailman that are causing them problems, I'd be happy to hear about them, and if it makes sense, to address them. I also wouldn't turn down their money <wink>.
Other than that, you're right, we really don't have any relationship with them, which is different than saying we're actively not supporting it anymore (not that we did in the first place :).
-Barry
On Mon, 2003-09-22 at 19:09, Barry Warsaw wrote:
On Mon, 2003-09-22 at 18:49, Chuq Von Rospach wrote:
Does anybody know anything about this?
I've seen people asking about it on ListOwners. I've kept my head down because I didn't know what you'd said/done, but it sort of sounds like it's either the cPanel folks trying to blame Mailman for its own problems, or an ISP trying to blame cPanel and/or mailman. I know we've never explicitly supported cPanel in the mailman projects. it seems like cPanel is the crew to bring this up with, not us.
Ah, thanks for the info Chuq. I think you've got the right take on things, except that I'd add this: if the cPanel developers have specific issues with Mailman that are causing them problems, I'd be happy to hear about them, and if it makes sense, to address them. I also wouldn't turn down their money <wink>.
Other than that, you're right, we really don't have any relationship with them, which is different than saying we're actively not supporting it anymore (not that we did in the first place :).
-Barry
We've seen a lot of CPanel folks coming here for help. I basically delete those, since we can never help them. But a few times folks on the list have expressed that we can't help them; that could easily be interpreted as "Mailman won't support CPanel installs".
One frustrating item that is expressed periodically is that CPanel won't open their source up. It would be nice if they would provide some sort of API or if they would release the source of their "Mailman widget" that controls Mailman - then we *could* help them.
I'm very surprised that no one from CPanel has approached Barry or the developers-list yet. There is a lot broken with CPanel that could be made much better with some shared ideas.
Jon Carnes
Yeah, I totally agree. I looked at cpanel about a year or so ago. Tried it on a test server. The thing's config is just so screwy that I couldn't make (quick) sense of how they handled even just postfix, let alone mailman and all the virtual domains stuff. Definitely not "stock" installs of any of the programs bundled with them, or "stock" configs.
And the fact that they are not open source makes me want to stay away even more.
Bob
---------- Original Message ----------- From: Jon Carnes <jonc@nc.rr.com> To: Barry Warsaw <barry@python.org> Sent: 22 Sep 2003 20:34:09 -0400 Subject: [Mailman-Developers] Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman & CPanel?
On Mon, 2003-09-22 at 19:09, Barry Warsaw wrote:
On Mon, 2003-09-22 at 18:49, Chuq Von Rospach wrote:
Does anybody know anything about this?
I've seen people asking about it on ListOwners. I've kept my head down because I didn't know what you'd said/done, but it sort of sounds like it's either the cPanel folks trying to blame Mailman for its own problems, or an ISP trying to blame cPanel and/or mailman. I know we've never explicitly supported cPanel in the mailman projects. it seems like cPanel is the crew to bring this up with, not us.
Ah, thanks for the info Chuq. I think you've got the right take on things, except that I'd add this: if the cPanel developers have specific issues with Mailman that are causing them problems, I'd be happy to hear about them, and if it makes sense, to address them. I also wouldn't turn down their money <wink>.
Other than that, you're right, we really don't have any relationship with them, which is different than saying we're actively not supporting it anymore (not that we did in the first place :).
-Barry
We've seen a lot of CPanel folks coming here for help. I basically delete those, since we can never help them. But a few times folks on the list have expressed that we can't help them; that could easily be interpreted as "Mailman won't support CPanel installs".
One frustrating item that is expressed periodically is that CPanel won't open their source up. It would be nice if they would provide some sort of API or if they would release the source of their "Mailman widget" that controls Mailman - then we *could* help them.
I'm very surprised that no one from CPanel has approached Barry or the developers-list yet. There is a lot broken with CPanel that could be made much better with some shared ideas.
Jon Carnes
Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers ------- End of Original Message -------
so perhaps the Mailman FAQ should have an item suggesting Cpanel users contact Cpanel for support?
On Monday, September 22, 2003, at 06:17 PM, Bob Puff@NLE wrote:
Definitely not "stock" installs of any of the programs bundled with them, or "stock" configs.
On Tue, 2003-09-23 at 14:40, Chuq Von Rospach wrote:
so perhaps the Mailman FAQ should have an item suggesting Cpanel users contact Cpanel for support?
For what it's worth this idea has my vote.
On Monday, September 22, 2003, at 06:17 PM, Bob Puff@NLE wrote:
Definitely not "stock" installs of any of the programs bundled with them, or "stock" configs.
Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers
-- Robert Anderson
Managing Director Ecommerce Magic Ltd http://www.ecommerce-magic.com +64 21 808 525
Can we get a mailing list set up to address and escalate mailman <-> cpanel issues?
I am particularly concerned about http://forums.cpanel.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15928 but from the mailman-users@python.org list there are definitely a whole host of issues that the mailman-developers would address if we had the correct communication in place.
Thanks, Martin
-- Martin@Cleaver.org - +1 416 832 7759 Melbourne Business School FT 2004 MBA Exchange Participant to Rotman
=-----Original Message----- =From: =mailman-users-bounces+martin.cleaver=bcs.org.uk@python.org =[mailto:mailman-users-bounces+martin.cleaver=bcs.org.uk@python. =org] On Behalf Of Jon Carnes =Sent: Monday, 22 September 2003 8:34 PM =To: Barry Warsaw =Cc: mailman-developers@python.org; mailman-users@python.org; =Chuq Von Rospach =Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman & CPanel?
= =On Mon, 2003-09-22 at 19:09, Barry Warsaw wrote: => On Mon, 2003-09-22 at 18:49, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: => => > > Does anybody know anything about this? => > => > I've seen people asking about it on ListOwners. I've kept my head => > down => > because I didn't know what you'd said/done, but it sort of =sounds like => > it's either the cPanel folks trying to blame Mailman for its own => > problems, or an ISP trying to blame cPanel and/or mailman. =I know we've => > never explicitly supported cPanel in the mailman projects. =it seems => > like cPanel is the crew to bring this up with, not us. => => Ah, thanks for the info Chuq. I think you've got the right take on => things, except that I'd add this: if the cPanel developers have => specific issues with Mailman that are causing them problems, I'd be => happy to hear about them, and if it makes sense, to address them. I => also wouldn't turn down their money <wink>. => => Other than that, you're right, we really don't have any relationship => with them, which is different than saying we're actively not => supporting it anymore (not that we did in the first place :). => => -Barry =>
=We've seen a lot of CPanel folks coming here for help. I =basically delete those, since we can never help them. But a =few times folks on the list have expressed that we can't help =them; that could easily be interpreted as "Mailman won't =support CPanel installs".
=One frustrating item that is expressed periodically is that =CPanel won't open their source up. It would be nice if they =would provide some sort of API or if they would release the =source of their "Mailman widget" that controls Mailman - then =we *could* help them.
=I'm very surprised that no one from CPanel has approached =Barry or the developers-list yet. There is a lot broken with =CPanel that could be made much better with some shared ideas.
=Jon Carnes
=
=Mailman-Users mailing list =Mailman-Users@python.org =http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman=-users =Mailman =FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py =Searchable Archives: =http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%=40python.org/
=This =message was sent to: Martin.Cleaver@bcs.org.uk =Unsubscribe or change your options at =http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-=users/martin.cle =aver%40bcs.org.uk
A little off topic perhaps but I believe that at least one other open source project (Interchange Ecommerce System) does have a NO SUPPORT policy for CPanel users.
I believe that they where having problems with the amount of very inexperienced webmasters who where sold a CPanel hosting solution and told that the guys over at the icdevgroup.org (interchange development group) provide free support.
These webmasters expected that if they checked the "Interchange" box on a web page they would get a free full featured ecommerce software package. And if it didn't work it was up to the open source community to fix their problems for free.
I don't know the answer but is mailman really an out of the box solution that is suitable for users without basic programming or linux sysadmin skills? Because there are a lot of CPanel users in this category.
Robert Anderson
Managing Director Ecommerce Magic Ltd http://www.ecommerce-magic.com +64 21 808 525
On Mon, 2003-09-22 at 19:02, Robert Anderson wrote:
I don't know the answer but is mailman really an out of the box solution that is suitable for users without basic programming or linux sysadmin skills? Because there are a lot of CPanel users in this category.
Installation and setup definitely requires sysadmin guru status, but I think /use/ doesn't (or at least, shouldn't). There's still some things you can't do through the web, but we'll eventually support most of the more common things people would want to do.
-Barry
At 7:25 PM -0400 2003/09/22, Barry Warsaw wrote:
Installation and setup definitely requires sysadmin guru status, but I think /use/ doesn't (or at least, shouldn't). There's still some things you can't do through the web, but we'll eventually support most of the more common things people would want to do.
Guru status? Mrf?
Okay, so we've gone to quite a bit more pain thanks to the way our apache2 chroot is set up, and someone else has done most of that work, but I've seen the mailman installation instructions and nothing there seems to be particularly difficult. Certainly not something that would require "guru" status.
Have I missed something?-- Brad Knowles, <brad.knowles@skynet.be>
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania.
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participants (7)
-
Barry Warsaw -
Bob Puff＠NLE -
Brad Knowles -
Chuq Von Rospach -
Jon Carnes -
Martin＠Cleaver.org -
Robert Anderson