On Wed, 2020-08-26 at 20:25 -0400, Brian Carpenter wrote:
On 8/26/20 7:02 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
I'm not sure where you think money comes into this, unless you are admitting that moving to mm3 requires expensive consulting contracts. I've turned down 2 large orgs that had trouble migrating from mm2 to mm3 and needed a 3rd party to bail them out. Brian, I recall referring one of them to you. So, I guess, money does come into play. Fear is another interesting choice of words. Do you think that the fear might be due to someone repeating over and over that this open source project is dead and will only be in maintenance mode (life support?) going forward?
Because the main reason why Mailman 2 has seen the popular use that it does is because of budget hosts that offered cPanel and Plesk environments. Both of them included Mailman 2 with their packages. I do know some hosting control panels are starting to drop support for Mailman 2 and that will continue to grow. I personally don't think Mailman 3 will see as large of an adoption rate as Mailman 2. That is because cheap hosting companies are not interested in quality but quantity. cPanel will probably never adopt Mailman 3. Dreamhost said no to it and will keep Mailman 2 for now. Why? Because Mailman 3 requires a more complex environment. However, my opinion, most well developed apps do. So SaaS providers such as myself will play a more important role in the propagation of Mailman 3. That's not a bad thing. At least Mailman 3 will have providers who will provide expert and conscientious support of Mailman 3 than some of these budget hosts (looking at you A2).
My experience is different, I know of no Mailman cPanel installs, in over 2 decades of dealing with Mailman. In fact, I have a long history of hating cPanel and such.
I think what prevents folks like you and Carl, ultimately, is fear of the unknown. Mailman 3 does not require expensive consulting contracts. I made a $150 bucks from your referral. That doesn't break no one's budget. Also I would appreciate if you keep our private conversations off of a public mailing list.
Sure, but you do know that you just revealed more about it than I did.
As for "fear", I don't fear mm3, I have a mm3 setup and that is how I know all about mm3 (that and the mm3 lists).
Mark is simply saying it doesn't make sent to continue to build up a retired application (MM2) and instead focus their limited resources on a young stallion called MM3. There is nothing wrong with that. Go to someone else for the development of MM2.
Who? I'm the one volunteering to do it, why would I go to someone else to do it for me? I just don't follow your logic there.
Let's recognize that mm3 has been around for 10 years, and during that time mm2 has been expanded and enhanced over and over. The difference now is that the gatekeeper who was doing that wants to move on, and should have the right and support to move on.
Well fine, then let those hosts take on the > responsibility of keeping Mailman 2 up to date. That is what open source > is all about.
That, *that* ^^^, is my point. I want to take that on, I want to work with contributors to commit their vetted and tested patches into the mm2 branch, I've basically been told to go somewhere else to do it. I think who/m ever takes it on should be part of the Mailman Team. There is absolutely no reason against, and there are certainly several examples for, having 2 or more active development branches in an open source (or closed source for that matter) project.
So go to cPanel forums to request that or Dreamhost, or others. I am pretty sure you will not like the answer you will get from them. Why wouldn't you just spend your efforts to migrate to Mailman 3? I just don't see the logic in your efforts here.
I'm confused, why do you think I should talk to Dreamhost or cPanel?
I didn't like Postorius or Hyperkitty (still don't, sorry Mark and Abs). So due to that beautiful REST api, I made my own path. At the end of the day, its still Mailman 3 that I am using. Modern web development offers so much choices and potentials these days for users. It's just sad that Mailman 2 will never see those choices and potentials because it just doesn't have the foundation to do so. It is dead in the water. But it is resurrected in Mailman 3.
You seem happy with mm3, and that is good. Nobody is saying you shouldn't have mm3...but please don't say others should do exactly what you want them to do wrt Mailman (or anything for that matter).
-Jim P.