On Thu, 2020-09-17 at 14:15 -0400, Brian Carpenter wrote:
On 9/17/20 1:45 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
That's kind of my point. mm2 works for me and my use, I'd much rather prefer to keep it working than to rip it out and replace it, including installed and maintaining a database, a framework, a new setup of custom admin scripts unique to my setup, etc. No one has sold me on mm3 yet.
It's because you don't want to be sold.
Absolutely not. I'm intrigued by the idea of mailman-core (1/3 of mm3) with a lightweight web-based GUI in front of it. But, to date, that doesn't exist. I also don't see the need for a db and api with a MLM, but I do see value in those things.
But I will say this, what you want as a list owner, and what your list members want are two different things. They may line up and they may not. But I suspect many list owners are watching their mm2 lists shrink either in membership size or posting activity. Communication behavior changes. Social media has had a tremendous impact on how communications work on the web. Integrations are very important to a lot of groups. None of these things are possible with Mailman 2. Mailman 2 is inflexible as your position to not be swayed to use Mailman 3.
That's just FUD. Don't take offense because I haven't taken you up on your mm3 work around(s). I have mm3 installs, but they are not what my users want.
Also your above comments show your unjustified bias against Mailman 3: "you have to do so many things to use Mailman 3". No you don't.
Again, you're the guy who had to pay someone else to make 2/3rds of Mailman 3 work for you.
I think the real culprit is your custom admin scripts that you are using to make up for whatever shortcomings you found with MM2. You don't want to go through the task of getting them to work with Mailman 3. Perhaps you can't. So at least that is a valid point for wanting to stick with MM2. However that is not the fault of Mailman 3.
My "custom scripts" are cron+bash scripts to send monthly mailman reports out to admins. Hardly anything that can't be re-worked anywhere else, but why?
I'm not sure what the point of this is. According to <https://www.mailop.org/about/>;;, MAILOP is already on Mailman 3. They are not, (i'd guess most likely due to overly optimistic views on how easy a migration to mm3 would be, perhaps they needed a bigger server or had to hire a database guy, who really knows). What i do know is that, from a post yesterday, they are still using an old Mailman version:
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2020 08:37:43 -0500 Subject: Re: [mailop] Spam using bit.ly link shorteners, this time via Outlook X-BeenThere:mailop@mailop.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: For mail operators <mailop.mailop.org>
I'd email Simon to ask why the discrepancy, but he's already alluded to it a few times on their list. Note: he originally planned to started moving mailop.org to mm3 last December, so he's had plenty of time.
Please let Simon know I can install Mailman 3 and migrate his list to Mailman 3 within a day.
I won't be your salesman.
It appears NANOG has only 3 public Mailman 2.1 lists and only one has archives pre-dating MM 2.1 which could require attention before importing to HyperKitty. So list migration via
mailman import21anddjango-admin hyperkitty_importshould be straightforward.I guess you are saying that step 1, "First install Mailman 3" would be the sticking point, but this is the same whether you are NANOG or mail.python.org or tiny site with one list, and it has been accomplished multiple times by multiple people. I've documented my experience at <https://wiki.list.org/x/17891998>;;. Brian's take is at <https://wiki.list.org/x/17892066>;;.
I've read both of those links in the past, and honestly that is good detail to have. What I was looking for in an "elevator pitch" is a 30 second statement on what benefit someone would have by moving to mm3. Given the time and effort (big or small) why should anyone move to mm3 if their mm2 installation still works and functions fine? There are people here saying "move to mm3 now!!, etc.", but what's the selling point?
-Jim P.
I have been posting those selling points frequently. But you are *inflexible* in your insistence in using MM2.
So re-capping them should be easy and do'able...., right?
I will give you a 3 second selling point: *flexibility*, choices, future new features, searchable archives, a growing community of users, etc.
I hope you one day see how ridiculous that sounds as an elevator pitch. ;-)
-Jim P.