I have been a long-time user of mailman and have been on many mailing lists.
I am also part of a professional association of social workers that
operate in my area. They have been using a list of addresses in a Cc
field to manage their mailing list. I can't imagine anything more
fraught with problems than that, but I can't convince these people to
let me host a mailman mailing list for them.
I can think of a lot of advantages myself, but I'm wondering if anyone
has seen a good list somewhere. I'm a strange combination of software
engineer and social worker, so I understand both worlds. My social
worker colleagues tend to think of something like a mailing list as
complicating things rather than simplifying them.
I'm not necessarily asking for a discussion here, but I'd like some
feedback on this.
Viva Mailman!
Rex Goode
Hi,
We use mailman for a very diverse set of people and needs, some few hundred mailing lists.
I would suggest the "terror" they feel is on something new to get over with, good luck!
regards
Steven
From: Mailman-Users <mailman-users-bounces+steven.jones=vuw.ac.nz@python.org> on behalf of rex@rexgoode.com <rex@rexgoode.com> Sent: Wednesday, 3 December 2014 1:05 p.m. To: mailman-users@python.org Subject: [Mailman-Users] Advantages
I have been a long-time user of mailman and have been on many mailing lists.
I am also part of a professional association of social workers that operate in my area. They have been using a list of addresses in a Cc field to manage their mailing list. I can't imagine anything more fraught with problems than that, but I can't convince these people to let me host a mailman mailing list for them.
I can think of a lot of advantages myself, but I'm wondering if anyone has seen a good list somewhere. I'm a strange combination of software engineer and social worker, so I understand both worlds. My social worker colleagues tend to think of something like a mailing list as complicating things rather than simplifying them.
I'm not necessarily asking for a discussion here, but I'd like some feedback on this.
Viva Mailman!
Rex Goode
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/steven.jones%40vuw.ac....
On 12/2/2014 6:05 PM, rex@rexgoode.com wrote:
Using a "Cc:" list has problems:
Someone might omit one or more addresses, and then some of the intended recipients will not get the e-mail. And it may be a different group, depending upon which sender omits which addresses.
An e-mail with too many recipient addresses might be classified as spam by a recipient's ISP, and using a "Bcc:" list avoids this problem but then no one knows the entire recipient list for replying.
These are the first two that come to mind, and I think that with these two, you do not need any more reasons to avoid using a Mailman list.
And Mailman provides an archive of the postings and can control who can post to the list.
--Barry Finkel
I would have thought the biggest problem with a Cc list is keeping the list up to date. If new people need to be added, removed or updated, people may use an old list for a long time after. It may be impossible to get some people to update it ever, or they might update then revert to an old one.
If it's only a few people then a cc list can work ok, but it can be near impossible to set up usable message rules.
Peter Shute
Sent from my iPad
Peter Shute writes:
I would have thought the biggest problem with a Cc list is keeping the list up to date.
It is.
But "don't fix what ain't broke" is a great rule. *We* (technies) should apply it more often. ;-)
In this case, some education is indeed in order IMHO. So the OP had it exactly right. Find "Dave Letterman's Top Ten Reasons to Switch to Mailman", and we are golden. :-)
Steve
On Thu, 2014-12-04 at 00:55 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
But "don't fix what ain't broke" is a great rule. *We* (technies) should apply it more often. ;-)
It is often said, with some truth, that the only way to get a computer program finished is to kill the programmer.
-- Lindsay Haisley | "Everything works if you let it" FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | --- The Roadie http://www.fmp.com |
Hey, everyone. Thanks for your feedback on my request for
advantages/disadvantages of a mailing list over a Cc list.
I came up with the following, based on your feedback, and reworded in
language I think my colleagues can understand.
Would you look it over and tell me if I've misrepresented anything or
have left anything out?
Rex
I suppose I should have added what I wanted you to look at. I don't
think mailman reads minds, yet.
Disadvantages for Using Cc to Manage a Mailing List
The list of recipients can be added to without the recipient's permission.
Any recipient can delete an address from the list.
When the Cc list gets too long, Internet Service Providers will
mark it as spam and all senders may be put in a blacklist.If you want to be removed, everyone on the list has to take your
address out of the Cc line.If you want out, everyone replying to any message when you were in
will put you back in.You can't use your email program's filtering capabilities to keep
your inbox clean.If your computer gets hacked, hackers can mine harvest our
addresses from your contact list.
Advanatages of a Software-Managed List
There is an archive of all past postings that can be searched by
subscribers only.The software provides spam filtering, protecting everyone's email
addresses from spammers.The software prevents us from getting each others' vacation messages.
The software prevents us from getting error messages when each
others' mailbox is full or bounces.Easier filtering in your email program, i.e., you can create a
folder that only has the list's messages.Each user can manage his own subscription, including turning
delivery off when you go on vacation or want some peace and quiet from
the discussion (and the archive will still be there when you want to
turn it on again).Numerous customizable options, such as: a standard footer (for confidentiality messages, etc) moderating tools, anonymizing addresses
Hides the email addresses of all members.
If you don't like getting every piece of email sent by subscribers,
you can set yourself for digest mode, where you would only get one
message per day that has every message for that day inside it.
Quoting rex@rexgoode.com:
On Sun, 2014-12-07 at 13:52 -0800, rex@rexgoode.com wrote:
I suppose I should have added what I wanted you to look at. I don't
think mailman reads minds, yet.
Running a discussion list using email CCs is, IMHO, unwieldy to the point of being unusable. A point which I didn't see in your lists is the fact that in some mail clients, addresses that stop working can derail the mailout so that every subsequent address in the list doesn't get a post.
I just set up a Mailman announcement list for some folks who were having this problem, trying to run their list from BCCs stored in the list owner's mail client, and the problems of trying to run a discussion list this way, with a CC list, would be an order of magnitude greater. I'd never try it with a list of more than a dozen people, at the most, but then I have ready access to my own mail server and Mailman installation :)
Mail clients vary substantially in how they handle DSNs and NDRs, and without centralized control over this you'd have chaos! Mail clients vary widely in their quality, behavior and adherence to published standards.
-- Lindsay Haisley | "Everything works if you let it" FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | --- The Roadie http://www.fmp.com |
FWIW, a friend had to fall back to BCCs for a specific announcement list because over half the 80 list members are on aol/comcrap/yahoo/hotmail (DMARC....) and the mailman installation isn't fully up to date. For these specific circumstances, it works, but neither of us would try it for more than about 100 members nor for a discussion list.
z!
On Mon, 2014-12-08 at 08:49 -0800, Carl Zwanzig wrote:
For an announcement list, I would think this would be a problem only if he was posting _from_ an address that advertises a DMARC policy. Gmail accounts are free .....
-- Lindsay Haisley | "Everything works if you let it" FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | --- The Roadie http://www.fmp.com |
rex@rexgoode.com writes:
I can think of a lot of advantages myself, but I'm wondering if anyone
has seen a good list somewhere.
There may be one on the wiki somewhere.
Besides the points Barry made, I would add:
Easier personal filtering. Geeks can use the List-* headers, non-geeks the Subject tags.
Common spam filtering (including vacation messages :-).
Common attachment filtering and storage.
Vacation functionality (for those who are willing to log in and set no-mail).
Dupe filtering (for those who are willing to log in and set not-me-too).
Advanced distribution and archive functionality (coming in Mailman 3).
On Wed, 3 Dec 2014, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
I have a list here: https://translate.google.no/translate?sl=no&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=no&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fspirituellkultur.org%2Fbcc-vs-mailman.html&edit-text=
(Sorry about bad google translate from Norwegian. :)
Thomas
On 12/03/14 03:09, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
I would add that mailing lists can hide all the members email addresses.
If someone is using Outlook and has it capturing email addresses of senders and other recipients in a "Suggested Contacts" address book and then they get hit by some malware that harvests these addresses, they will get all the individual list members and they can start sending Spam to these people.
If a mailing list is used, only senders and the list address appear. You can even hide the sender behind the list keeping everyone anonymous. The list can better deal with any Spam than what most individuals can.
-- Gary Algier, WB2FWZ gaa@ulticom.com +1 856 787 2758 Ulticom Inc., 1020 Briggs Rd, Mt. Laurel, NJ 08054 Fax:+1 856 866 2033
Hi,
We use mailman for a very diverse set of people and needs, some few hundred mailing lists.
I would suggest the "terror" they feel is on something new to get over with, good luck!
regards
Steven
From: Mailman-Users <mailman-users-bounces+steven.jones=vuw.ac.nz@python.org> on behalf of rex@rexgoode.com <rex@rexgoode.com> Sent: Wednesday, 3 December 2014 1:05 p.m. To: mailman-users@python.org Subject: [Mailman-Users] Advantages
I have been a long-time user of mailman and have been on many mailing lists.
I am also part of a professional association of social workers that operate in my area. They have been using a list of addresses in a Cc field to manage their mailing list. I can't imagine anything more fraught with problems than that, but I can't convince these people to let me host a mailman mailing list for them.
I can think of a lot of advantages myself, but I'm wondering if anyone has seen a good list somewhere. I'm a strange combination of software engineer and social worker, so I understand both worlds. My social worker colleagues tend to think of something like a mailing list as complicating things rather than simplifying them.
I'm not necessarily asking for a discussion here, but I'd like some feedback on this.
Viva Mailman!
Rex Goode
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/steven.jones%40vuw.ac....
On 12/2/2014 6:05 PM, rex@rexgoode.com wrote:
Using a "Cc:" list has problems:
Someone might omit one or more addresses, and then some of the intended recipients will not get the e-mail. And it may be a different group, depending upon which sender omits which addresses.
An e-mail with too many recipient addresses might be classified as spam by a recipient's ISP, and using a "Bcc:" list avoids this problem but then no one knows the entire recipient list for replying.
These are the first two that come to mind, and I think that with these two, you do not need any more reasons to avoid using a Mailman list.
And Mailman provides an archive of the postings and can control who can post to the list.
--Barry Finkel
I would have thought the biggest problem with a Cc list is keeping the list up to date. If new people need to be added, removed or updated, people may use an old list for a long time after. It may be impossible to get some people to update it ever, or they might update then revert to an old one.
If it's only a few people then a cc list can work ok, but it can be near impossible to set up usable message rules.
Peter Shute
Sent from my iPad
Peter Shute writes:
I would have thought the biggest problem with a Cc list is keeping the list up to date.
It is.
But "don't fix what ain't broke" is a great rule. *We* (technies) should apply it more often. ;-)
In this case, some education is indeed in order IMHO. So the OP had it exactly right. Find "Dave Letterman's Top Ten Reasons to Switch to Mailman", and we are golden. :-)
Steve
On Thu, 2014-12-04 at 00:55 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
But "don't fix what ain't broke" is a great rule. *We* (technies) should apply it more often. ;-)
It is often said, with some truth, that the only way to get a computer program finished is to kill the programmer.
-- Lindsay Haisley | "Everything works if you let it" FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | --- The Roadie http://www.fmp.com |
Hey, everyone. Thanks for your feedback on my request for
advantages/disadvantages of a mailing list over a Cc list.
I came up with the following, based on your feedback, and reworded in
language I think my colleagues can understand.
Would you look it over and tell me if I've misrepresented anything or
have left anything out?
Rex
I suppose I should have added what I wanted you to look at. I don't
think mailman reads minds, yet.
Disadvantages for Using Cc to Manage a Mailing List
The list of recipients can be added to without the recipient's permission.
Any recipient can delete an address from the list.
When the Cc list gets too long, Internet Service Providers will
mark it as spam and all senders may be put in a blacklist.If you want to be removed, everyone on the list has to take your
address out of the Cc line.If you want out, everyone replying to any message when you were in
will put you back in.You can't use your email program's filtering capabilities to keep
your inbox clean.If your computer gets hacked, hackers can mine harvest our
addresses from your contact list.
Advanatages of a Software-Managed List
There is an archive of all past postings that can be searched by
subscribers only.The software provides spam filtering, protecting everyone's email
addresses from spammers.The software prevents us from getting each others' vacation messages.
The software prevents us from getting error messages when each
others' mailbox is full or bounces.Easier filtering in your email program, i.e., you can create a
folder that only has the list's messages.Each user can manage his own subscription, including turning
delivery off when you go on vacation or want some peace and quiet from
the discussion (and the archive will still be there when you want to
turn it on again).Numerous customizable options, such as: a standard footer (for confidentiality messages, etc) moderating tools, anonymizing addresses
Hides the email addresses of all members.
If you don't like getting every piece of email sent by subscribers,
you can set yourself for digest mode, where you would only get one
message per day that has every message for that day inside it.
Quoting rex@rexgoode.com:
On Sun, 2014-12-07 at 13:52 -0800, rex@rexgoode.com wrote:
I suppose I should have added what I wanted you to look at. I don't
think mailman reads minds, yet.
Running a discussion list using email CCs is, IMHO, unwieldy to the point of being unusable. A point which I didn't see in your lists is the fact that in some mail clients, addresses that stop working can derail the mailout so that every subsequent address in the list doesn't get a post.
I just set up a Mailman announcement list for some folks who were having this problem, trying to run their list from BCCs stored in the list owner's mail client, and the problems of trying to run a discussion list this way, with a CC list, would be an order of magnitude greater. I'd never try it with a list of more than a dozen people, at the most, but then I have ready access to my own mail server and Mailman installation :)
Mail clients vary substantially in how they handle DSNs and NDRs, and without centralized control over this you'd have chaos! Mail clients vary widely in their quality, behavior and adherence to published standards.
-- Lindsay Haisley | "Everything works if you let it" FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | --- The Roadie http://www.fmp.com |
FWIW, a friend had to fall back to BCCs for a specific announcement list because over half the 80 list members are on aol/comcrap/yahoo/hotmail (DMARC....) and the mailman installation isn't fully up to date. For these specific circumstances, it works, but neither of us would try it for more than about 100 members nor for a discussion list.
z!
On Mon, 2014-12-08 at 08:49 -0800, Carl Zwanzig wrote:
For an announcement list, I would think this would be a problem only if he was posting _from_ an address that advertises a DMARC policy. Gmail accounts are free .....
-- Lindsay Haisley | "Everything works if you let it" FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | --- The Roadie http://www.fmp.com |
rex@rexgoode.com writes:
I can think of a lot of advantages myself, but I'm wondering if anyone
has seen a good list somewhere.
There may be one on the wiki somewhere.
Besides the points Barry made, I would add:
Easier personal filtering. Geeks can use the List-* headers, non-geeks the Subject tags.
Common spam filtering (including vacation messages :-).
Common attachment filtering and storage.
Vacation functionality (for those who are willing to log in and set no-mail).
Dupe filtering (for those who are willing to log in and set not-me-too).
Advanced distribution and archive functionality (coming in Mailman 3).
On Wed, 3 Dec 2014, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
I have a list here: https://translate.google.no/translate?sl=no&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=no&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fspirituellkultur.org%2Fbcc-vs-mailman.html&edit-text=
(Sorry about bad google translate from Norwegian. :)
Thomas
On 12/03/14 03:09, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
I would add that mailing lists can hide all the members email addresses.
If someone is using Outlook and has it capturing email addresses of senders and other recipients in a "Suggested Contacts" address book and then they get hit by some malware that harvests these addresses, they will get all the individual list members and they can start sending Spam to these people.
If a mailing list is used, only senders and the list address appear. You can even hide the sender behind the list keeping everyone anonymous. The list can better deal with any Spam than what most individuals can.
-- Gary Algier, WB2FWZ gaa@ulticom.com +1 856 787 2758 Ulticom Inc., 1020 Briggs Rd, Mt. Laurel, NJ 08054 Fax:+1 856 866 2033
participants (9)
-
Barry S. Finkel -
Carl Zwanzig -
Gary Algier -
Lindsay Haisley -
Peter Shute -
rex＠rexgoode.com -
Stephen J. Turnbull -
Steven Jones -
Thomas Gramstad