Outlook Indenting messages
Recently, and in the past, when posting to a python mailing list (not this one specifically), my message has been indented and placed under the last message (of a completely unrelated post). -ie. it looks like I've hijacked a thread.
I didn't however - I created a brand new email message (from scratch) and sent it to the list. Any ideas on how or why it would appear like I was responding to a completely unrelated post? (there was actually nothing I could even find in common on my subject line and the subject of the post where my message appeared indented under.)
After reading the FAQ, and searching the archives, I couldn't find anything related to this, so I'll ask here. I would like to determine if this is a mailman-related issue in general, something specific with some mailman-run mailing lists that I post to, or a problem specifically related to our Outlook or Outlook Exchange setup. (...I was hoping for a different answer than the obvious "don't use Outlook")
...maybe, If I'm lucky, this message will hijack a thread, and the answer will be obvious to "the-powers-that-be".
Thanks for any help Gerrat
Gerrat Rickert wrote:
Recently, and in the past, when posting to a python mailing list (not this one specifically), my message has been indented and placed under the last message (of a completely unrelated post). -ie. it looks like I've hijacked a thread.
I assume you are talking about your message in the pipermail archive. If so, can you point at one such in the archives of a list?
If you're talking about threading in your own MUA (mail client) that doesn't appear that way in the archive, then I don't think we can help.
I didn't however - I created a brand new email message (from scratch) and sent it to the list. Any ideas on how or why it would appear like I was responding to a completely unrelated post? (there was actually nothing I could even find in common on my subject line and the subject of the post where my message appeared indented under.)
Threading in the pipermail archive has nothing to do with the Subject: header. It is based on In-Reply-To: and/or References: headers.
After reading the FAQ, and searching the archives, I couldn't find anything related to this, so I'll ask here. I would like to determine if this is a mailman-related issue in general, something specific with some mailman-run mailing lists that I post to, or a problem specifically related to our Outlook or Outlook Exchange setup. (...I was hoping for a different answer than the obvious "don't use Outlook")
I'm not aware of any such issue in Mailman.
...maybe, If I'm lucky, this message will hijack a thread, and the answer will be obvious to "the-powers-that-be".
Sorry, not in the list archive anyway. If there is an example in a public archive, please point to it.
-- Mark Sapiro mark@msapiro.net The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
-----Original Message----- From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:mark@msapiro.net] Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 11:56 AM To: Gerrat Rickert; mailman-users@python.org Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Outlook Indenting messages
Gerrat Rickert wrote:
Recently, and in the past, when posting to a python mailing list (not this one specifically), my message has been indented and placed under the last message (of a completely unrelated post). -ie. it looks like I've hijacked a thread.
I assume you are talking about your message in the pipermail archive. If so, can you point at one such in the archives of a list? <snip>
Yes, this message: http://twistedmatrix.com/pipermail/twisted-python/2009-June/019859.html
Thanks, Gerrat
Gerrat Rickert wrote:
-----Original Message----- From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:mark@msapiro.net] Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 11:56 AM To: Gerrat Rickert; mailman-users@python.org Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Outlook Indenting messages
Gerrat Rickert wrote:
Recently, and in the past, when posting to a python mailing list (not this one specifically), my message has been indented and placed under the last message (of a completely unrelated post). -ie. it looks like I've hijacked a thread.
I assume you are talking about your message in the pipermail archive. If so, can you point at one such in the archives of a list? <snip>
Yes, this message: http://twistedmatrix.com/pipermail/twisted-python/2009-June/019859.html
I see the incorrect threading of the above message in the index http://twistedmatrix.com/pipermail/twisted-python/2009-June. I also see other threading anomalies in the same index.
I downloaded the twisted-python.mbox/twisted-python.mbox file from twistedmatrix.com and built the May and June archive from it in a test 2.1.9 Mailman. For example at the end of http://twistedmatrix.com/pipermail/twisted-python/2009-June I see
# [Twisted-Python] untwisting twistd Jared Gisin
+ [Twisted-Python] untwisting twistd Phil Christensen
+ [Twisted-Python] untwisting twistd glyph at
divmod.com
+ [Twisted-Python] untwisting twistd Phil Christensen
* [Twisted-Python] untwisting twistd Alex Clemesha
o [Twisted-Python] untwisting twistd Jared Gisin
+ [Twisted-Python] untwisting twistd Phil Christensen
+ [Twisted-Python] untwisting twistd Johan Rydberg
# [Twisted-Python] twisted.web2 only can serve one connection at the
same time when using scgi? Chris
# [Twisted-Python] Fwd: SerialPort.loseConnection() in Win32,
workaround biziap biziap
* [Twisted-Python] Twisted Trial Gerrat Rickert
o [Twisted-Python] Twisted Trial glyph at divmod.com
+ [Twisted-Python] Twisted Trial Gerrat Rickert
# [Twisted-Python] adbapi and multiple queries in single transaction.
Vishal Shetye
+ [Twisted-Python] adbapi and multiple queries in
single transaction. Phil Christensen
# [Twisted-Python] adbapi and multiple queries in single Vishal Shetye
# [Twisted-Python] [ANN] Foolscap-0.4.2 released Brian Warner
# [Twisted-Python] How to disable XMLRPC logging Dustin Land
* [Twisted-Python] How to disable XMLRPC logging Jean-Paul
Calderone
and in the archive I built from the .mbox
# [Twisted-Python] untwisting twistd Jared Gisin
* [Twisted-Python] untwisting twistd Phil Christensen
o [Twisted-Python] untwisting twistd glyph at divmod.com
+ [Twisted-Python] untwisting twistd Phil Christensen
* [Twisted-Python] untwisting twistd Alex Clemesha
o [Twisted-Python] untwisting twistd Jared Gisin
+ [Twisted-Python] untwisting twistd Phil Christensen
* [Twisted-Python] untwisting twistd Johan Rydberg
# [Twisted-Python] twisted.web2 only can serve one connection at the
same time when using scgi? Chris
# [Twisted-Python] Fwd: SerialPort.loseConnection() in Win32,
workaround biziap biziap
# [Twisted-Python] Twisted Trial Gerrat Rickert
* [Twisted-Python] Twisted Trial glyph at divmod.com
o [Twisted-Python] Twisted Trial Gerrat Rickert
# [Twisted-Python] adbapi and multiple queries in single transaction.
Vishal Shetye
* [Twisted-Python] adbapi and multiple queries in single
transaction. Phil Christensen
# [Twisted-Python] adbapi and multiple queries in single Vishal Shetye
# [Twisted-Python] [ANN] Foolscap-0.4.2 released Brian Warner
# [Twisted-Python] How to disable XMLRPC logging Dustin Land
* [Twisted-Python] How to disable XMLRPC logging Jean-Paul
Calderone
You can see in the twistedmatrix.com index two cases where the second post in a thread is indented to level 3 instead of level 1 which is clearly wrong. You can also see that in the archive I built, your thread starts at level 0 as it should.
Also note that this apparently has nothing to do with Outlook.. There is a similarly indented post in early June -
[Twisted-Python] Application Design help - Concurrent but not Protocols based. Senthil Kumaran
and the posting MUA in that case was Mutt.
Also see http://twistedmatrix.com/pipermail/glyph-discuss/2009-May/thread.html where the only two posts (spam) are both indented to level 1.
Does this occur only on twistedmatrix.com lists? There is clearly something wrong with the archiving process on that site, but I can't duplicate it in a stock 2.1.9 environment.
-- Mark Sapiro mark@msapiro.net The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
-----Original Message----- From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:mark@msapiro.net] Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 3:01 PM To: Gerrat Rickert; mailman-users@python.org Subject: RE: [Mailman-Users] Outlook Indenting messages
Gerrat Rickert wrote:
-----Original Message----- From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:mark@msapiro.net] Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 11:56 AM To: Gerrat Rickert; mailman-users@python.org Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Outlook Indenting messages
Gerrat Rickert wrote:
Recently, and in the past, when posting to a python mailing list (not this one specifically), my message has been indented and placed under the last message (of a completely unrelated post). -ie. it looks like I've hijacked a thread.
I assume you are talking about your message in the pipermail archive. If so, can you point at one such in the archives of a list? <snip>
Yes, this message: http://twistedmatrix.com/pipermail/twisted-python/2009-June/019859.htm l
I see the incorrect threading of the above message in the index http://twistedmatrix.com/pipermail/twisted-python/2009-June. I also see other threading anomalies in the same index.
I downloaded the twisted-python.mbox/twisted-python.mbox file from twistedmatrix.com and built the May and June archive from it in a test 2.1.9 Mailman. For example at the end of http://twistedmatrix.com/pipermail/twisted-python/2009-June I see
<snip>
You can see in the twistedmatrix.com index two cases where the second post in a thread is indented to level 3 instead of level 1 which is clearly wrong. You can also see that in the archive I built, your thread starts at level 0 as it should.
Also note that this apparently has nothing to do with Outlook.. There is a similarly indented post in early June -
[Twisted-Python] Application Design help - Concurrent but not Protocols based. Senthil Kumaran
and the posting MUA in that case was Mutt.
Also see http://twistedmatrix.com/pipermail/glyph-discuss/2009-May/thread.html where the only two posts (spam) are both indented to level 1.
Does this occur only on twistedmatrix.com lists? There is clearly something wrong with the archiving process on that site, but I can't duplicate it in a stock 2.1.9 environment.
Thanks for your detailed investigation, Mark.
I may have misremembered how a previous posting of mine was mis-indented
(...postings were from a few years back, and it may have just been that
my replies were shown at the top level instead of indented - I believe
this may have been an old bug with Outlook specifically).
I don't have any other examples from other mailing lists, so let's assume it's just the twistedmatrix.com list for now. I'll forward this thread to their mailing list administrator to investigate.
Thanks again for your help. Regards, Gerrat
Gerrat Rickert wrote:
I may have misremembered how a previous posting of mine was mis-indented (...postings were from a few years back, and it may have just been that my replies were shown at the top level instead of indented - I believe this may have been an old bug with Outlook specifically).
I don't know if it is related or not, but I have noticed a similar problem with my Mail <-> News gateway (included with Mailman). Specifically messages that I reply to the mailing list seem to loose the message ID of the immediate parent message and what should look like this:
- first message
- second message
- third message
- second message
Often
- first message
- second message
- third message
I have attributed this to the fact that Mailman either munges or out and out replaces the Message-ID.
However, none of this is a hijacked thread as the Gerrat indicated.
Grant. . . .
Grant Taylor wrote:
Gerrat Rickert wrote:
I may have misremembered how a previous posting of mine was mis-indented (...postings were from a few years back, and it may have just been that my replies were shown at the top level instead of indented - I believe this may have been an old bug with Outlook specifically).
I don't know if it is related or not, but I have noticed a similar problem with my Mail <-> News gateway (included with Mailman). Specifically messages that I reply to the mailing list seem to loose the message ID of the immediate parent message and what should look like this:
- first message
- second message
- third message
Often
- first message
- second message
- third message
I have attributed this to the fact that Mailman either munges or out and out replaces the Message-ID.
I think this is unrelated to any of Gerrat's issues. Mailman does replace the Message-ID header in messages gated from a list to usenet. The reason for this is if a message is cross-posted to two Mailman lists, both of which gateway to usenet groups, the messages will be separately gated to the nntp server, and if they have the same Message-ID, the nntp server will ignore the second one it receives.
This can lead to the issue above because messages posted to a list will have one Message-ID in the list archive and a different Message-ID on usenet. Suppose 'second message' above is a reply to 'first message' from the list. Its In-Reply-To: and References: headers reference the list Message-ID of 'first message and it is properly threaded in the list archive. Then 'third message' is a usenet reply to 'second message'. Since it is a usenet reply, its In-Reply-To: references the usenet Message-ID of 'second message' which is unknown to the list archive. Its References: header will reference the usnet Message-ID of 'second message' and the list Message-ID of 'first message' from the References: header of 'second message'. Thus, when it gets archived, it is threaded as a reply to 'first message' since that is the only referenced Message-ID known to the archiver.
-- Mark Sapiro mark@msapiro.net The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
-----Original Message----- From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:mark@msapiro.net] Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 11:56 AM To: Gerrat Rickert; mailman-users@python.org Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Outlook Indenting messages
Gerrat Rickert wrote:
Recently, and in the past, when posting to a python mailing list (not this one specifically), my message has been indented and placed under the last message (of a completely unrelated post). -ie. it looks like I've hijacked a thread.
I assume you are talking about your message in the pipermail archive. If so, can you point at one such in the archives of a list? <snip>
Yes, this message: http://twistedmatrix.com/pipermail/twisted-python/2009-June/019859.ht m l
I see the incorrect threading of the above message in the index http://twistedmatrix.com/pipermail/twisted-python/2009-June. I also see other threading anomalies in the same index.
I downloaded the twisted-python.mbox/twisted-python.mbox file from twistedmatrix.com and built the May and June archive from it in a test 2.1.9 Mailman. For example at the end of http://twistedmatrix.com/pipermail/twisted-python/2009-June I see
<snip>
You can see in the twistedmatrix.com index two cases where the second post in a thread is indented to level 3 instead of level 1 which is clearly wrong. You can also see that in the archive I built, your thread starts at level 0 as it should.
Also note that this apparently has nothing to do with Outlook.. There is a similarly indented post in early June -
[Twisted-Python] Application Design help - Concurrent but not Protocols based. Senthil Kumaran
and the posting MUA in that case was Mutt.
Also see <http://twistedmatrix.com/pipermail/glyph-discuss/2009-May/thread.html
where the only two posts (spam) are both indented to level 1.
Does this occur only on twistedmatrix.com lists? There is clearly something wrong with the archiving process on that site, but I can't duplicate it in a stock 2.1.9 environment.
Thanks for your detailed investigation, Mark. I may have misremembered how a previous posting of mine was mis-indented (...postings were from a few years back, and it may have just been that my replies were shown at the top level instead of indented - I believe this may have been an old bug with Outlook specifically).
I don't have any other examples from other mailing lists, so let's assume it's just the twistedmatrix.com list for now. I'll forward this thread to their mailing list administrator to investigate.
Thanks again for your help. Regards, Gerrat
I have (a little) more info about this now, Mark (another list that this
type of thing is happening on).
This was a posting on the twisted-python mailing list (on which I had the indentation issue):
I was reminded of this thread when I came across what appears to be the
same bug on the Tahoe list:
http://allmydata.org/pipermail/tahoe-dev/2009-July/thread.html
Notice multiple posts in threads they don't look like they belong to, as well as many threads which have nonsensical levels of indentation.
I'm not sure if anyone ever answered your question about twisted- python's mailman installation being "stock" or not. If not, then I think I can confirm that it is. There is also no configuration that would alter this behavior, as far as I know. We've probably set a few options via the admin interface, but I don't think any of those should affect this behavior.
Jean-Paul
The twisted python mailing list is running on: "unmodified mailman 1:2.1.9-9ubuntu1 install", and the Tahoe list is using: "2.1.9-4ubuntu1"
Could this be an ubuntu-specific issue?
Thanks, Gerrat
This thread began in June at http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2009-June/066410.html and continued at http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2009-June/066415.html
Gerrat Rickert wrote:
I have (a little) more info about this now, Mark (another list that this type of thing is happening on).
This was a posting on the twisted-python mailing list (on which I had the indentation issue):
I was reminded of this thread when I came across what appears to be the
same bug on the Tahoe list:
http://allmydata.org/pipermail/tahoe-dev/2009-July/thread.html
Notice multiple posts in threads they don't look like they belong to, as well as many threads which have nonsensical levels of indentation.
I'm not sure if anyone ever answered your question about twisted- python's mailman installation being "stock" or not. If not, then I think I can confirm that it is. There is also no configuration that would alter this behavior, as far as I know. We've probably set a few options via the admin interface, but I don't think any of those should affect this behavior.
Jean-Paul
The twisted python mailing list is running on: "unmodified mailman 1:2.1.9-9ubuntu1 install", and the Tahoe list is using: "2.1.9-4ubuntu1"
Could this be an ubuntu-specific issue?
Ubuntu is based on Debian.
I have just confirmed by testing that this problem is caused by the Debian Mailman patch "30_pipermail_threads.patch".
This patch can be found by following the links from http://patch-tracking.debian.net/package/mailman (I don't want to give a more specific URL because the URLs below this level are unstable).
Thus, the problem potentially exists in all Debian/Ubuntu Mailman packages. The patch attempts to fix Debian bug #167758 http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=167758, and it may do that, but it clearly breaks this.
I'll try to report this to Debian.
-- Mark Sapiro mark@msapiro.net The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
participants (3)
-
Gerrat Rickert -
Grant Taylor -
Mark Sapiro