Merging List Administrator with List membership
Hi there,
Some of list-name on my list server having more than one List-administrator (List-owner)/List-moderators.
The problems are when one of List-owner/list-moderators approve held message, adding/removing members, change list-administrator page password there is no notification to others list-administrators.
They are already common with my old list (listar aka ecartis) which the list administrator merging with list member (just have different menu). So some list administrator do easy going to change list-administrator/list-moderators password without notify others [1]
How can I merge list adminitrator page with list member page on mailman?
[1] I don't know why if one list-administrator change the password there is no notification to others list-administrator, is the default install doing like that?
-- syafril
Syafril Hermansyah
Syafril Hermansyah wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean. For Mailman 2.1.x, see the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/5YA9> for a description of the various roles.
Mailman was developed in a more collegial world <wink>.
The situation will change in Mailman 3 to one which is more like I think you want. In MM 3 each person has a login and within that login user/password can have multiple e-mail addresses and a set of roles such as
administrator of list1 moderator of list2 member of list1, list3 and list4.
This capability and the implied separation of passwords for multiple admins does not and will not exist in Mailman 2.1.x.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
On 10/11/2011 08:30 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
I wish when member (who also act as List-Administrator/moderator) login on their membership page (http://%s/mailman/listinfo/<address>) there is link to administrative page (or held page) and s/he can reach the page without authenticate first. That way any list-administrator which also member of the list only need to remember single password/authentication, no need to notify other list-administrators/moderators about new password. The list-administrative page still exist though, this page need it for super admin (or list maintainer) to help list administrator changes some setting (just in case).
And then when any list-administrator/moderators make approval (of held messages) or add/remove any member, there is mail notification to listname-owner/listname-moderators that message has been approved or new member has been added or membership has been removed by <address-of-one-list-administrator>, that way other list-administrators know that someone has been did the job, no further action required.
Sounds good to me :-)
-- syafril
Syafril Hermansyah
On 10/10/2011 7:21 PM, Syafril Hermansyah wrote:
The web UI will be different in MM 3 and may not work exactly as you state above, but the function you look for will be there. No changes are contemplated for Mailman 2.1.x.
These actions are currently logged, but no notices are sent. Notices would be difficult to implement in Mailman 2.1.x because there is no list method for notifying all owners/moderators except one.
This seems like a reasonable request for MM 3 if it isn't already planned.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
On 10/12/2011 06:46 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
Which log?
I think notify to themselves (list-owner@list-domain.tld) should be suffice the need, but still need info on the body text about who make changes. IMHO this kind of features is a must have for multi list-administrator / list-moderators as on some of my mailing list.
This seems like a reasonable request for MM 3 if it isn't already planned.
I hope MM 3.x developer can considering it to make make list administrator live more easy :-)
-- syafril
Syafril Hermansyah
Syafril Hermansyah writes:
This is regularly requested, but I have a hard time understanding why it's useful, unless you have really horrible connectivity to the list admin pages. All it's going to do is fill up people's mailboxes with these messages, and everybody will get two messages per task instead of one. I think that the only reason this request keeps coming up is that until it's implemented nobody will notice the practical problems with it.
I administer about a dozen lists, and direct the "you have messages to moderate" notices to the bitbucket. I have a bookmark folder in Firefox with a bookmark for each list's moderation queue. When I'm about to do admin work (two or three times a day), the first thing I do is "Open All in Tabs", which usually takes 20-30 seconds. The password is in the bookmarks, which is a small security risk but I'm not particularly worried about these lists. Often I won't even wait, but immediately turn to email or such.
When I'm ready to do moderation, I just run down the tabs, closing each one when I'm done. I used to keep all the tabs open and minimize the window when done, but all too often I'd either forget to process a list, or forget to refresh its page so that it looked like an empty queue. The "close when done, open all in tabs when ready to start again" strategy works very well for me.
If you only have one list to moderate, but share it with others, then clicking an icon or selecting the window from a menu, and hitting refresh, is hardly more effort than dealing with an extra mail, especially once it becomes part of the routine.
IMO YMMV, but really I think you should look at reorganizing the existing workflow rather than adding to it.
On 10/13/2011 01:36 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
IMO YMMV, but really I think you should look at reorganizing the existing workflow rather than adding to it.
I commonly just act as list-maintainer for most mailing list that host on my list server, only a few list that I have job as list-administrator/list-moderators (technical mailing list).
Most mailing list are for small community (alumni of colleges, alumni of senior high schools, alumni of junior high schools etc) which I don't always follow, and the most list owner are lack of IT knowledge even too old to learn the new technology but they (the list owner) are capable enough to moderate the list, directing the discussion. They trust me to run mailing list on my list server instead of at yahoogroups or googlegroups because they know I will help them just in case problems.
So I speak for them, who has a little knowledge of IT but willing to run mailing list. The need of notification for me it just make sure the real list-owner already did the job after enough learning curve so I can leave it them alone someday.
-- syafril
Syafril Hermansyah
Syafril Hermansyah writes:
So I speak for them, who has a little knowledge of IT but willing to run mailing list.
Well, if they have little knowledge of IT, then you should do the workflow analysis for them. It's not a good idea to just do what users request, because they don't know what the capabilities are.
That's a different matter. If the only person who really needs the service is you, then I would think you would prefer a periodic summary of all lists. I don't think it's possible with the current version of bin/show_qfiles, but it shouldn't be too hard to improve that script to gather information from lists/*/pending.pck and sort them by time, oldest first. Then you know which lists haven't been moderated for quite a long time, and need attention. Then run that cron job daily (I would think that's enough for the kind of list you describe).
I'm sorry I don't have the time to do it, though. Maybe somebody already has such a script?
On 10/13/2011 04:24 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
That's what I did, I tried to tech them how to manage the mailing list and some of the result I am declaring here since I also lack of knowledge of Mailman and Postfix (I was running Listar aka ecartis with Exim since 2001, they said MailMan less techiest than Listar but too many hidden menu).
Indeed, actually listar/ecartis give me this kind of notice by adding me as (hidden) super-admin at any list and enable "daily/weekly report" (also "diagnostic report"), but I think no need for Mailman do by far, notices of someone did changes of membership/password is suffice for me, at least for now.
I don't have programming knowledge, so I can not do that myself :-( Anyhow, thanks for your attention
-- syafril
Syafril Hermansyah
Syafril Hermansyah wrote:
There is a script to list the pending requests for a list at <http://www.msapiro.net/scripts/list_pending>. This could be run via a shell script like
#!/bin/sh
cd /path/to/mailman
for list in bin/list_lists --bare; do
echo $list
bin/list_pending [desired options] $list
done
Or if desired, you could collect the output in a file and sort or otherwise manipulate it.
There is also the Mailman daily status report script (mmdsr) in the contrib directory of the Mailman distribution.
Finally, there is the daily summary of pending requests (produced by cron/checkdbs) that Mailman already produces for each list and mails to the admins and moderators.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
On 10/13/2011 11:24 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
There is a script to list the pending requests for a list at <http://www.msapiro.net/scripts/list_pending>.
Thanks, will take a look later.
-- syafril
Syafril Hermansyah
Syafril Hermansyah wrote:
Member added/removed is logged in Mailman's 'subscribe' log. Disposition of moderated post is logged in Mailman's 'vette' log.
These logs do not say which admin performed the action. for that, you have to correlate with the web server logs which can give you at least the IP the POST transaction came from.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
Syafril Hermansyah wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean. For Mailman 2.1.x, see the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/5YA9> for a description of the various roles.
Mailman was developed in a more collegial world <wink>.
The situation will change in Mailman 3 to one which is more like I think you want. In MM 3 each person has a login and within that login user/password can have multiple e-mail addresses and a set of roles such as
administrator of list1 moderator of list2 member of list1, list3 and list4.
This capability and the implied separation of passwords for multiple admins does not and will not exist in Mailman 2.1.x.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
On 10/11/2011 08:30 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
I wish when member (who also act as List-Administrator/moderator) login on their membership page (http://%s/mailman/listinfo/<address>) there is link to administrative page (or held page) and s/he can reach the page without authenticate first. That way any list-administrator which also member of the list only need to remember single password/authentication, no need to notify other list-administrators/moderators about new password. The list-administrative page still exist though, this page need it for super admin (or list maintainer) to help list administrator changes some setting (just in case).
And then when any list-administrator/moderators make approval (of held messages) or add/remove any member, there is mail notification to listname-owner/listname-moderators that message has been approved or new member has been added or membership has been removed by <address-of-one-list-administrator>, that way other list-administrators know that someone has been did the job, no further action required.
Sounds good to me :-)
-- syafril
Syafril Hermansyah
On 10/10/2011 7:21 PM, Syafril Hermansyah wrote:
The web UI will be different in MM 3 and may not work exactly as you state above, but the function you look for will be there. No changes are contemplated for Mailman 2.1.x.
These actions are currently logged, but no notices are sent. Notices would be difficult to implement in Mailman 2.1.x because there is no list method for notifying all owners/moderators except one.
This seems like a reasonable request for MM 3 if it isn't already planned.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
On 10/12/2011 06:46 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
Which log?
I think notify to themselves (list-owner@list-domain.tld) should be suffice the need, but still need info on the body text about who make changes. IMHO this kind of features is a must have for multi list-administrator / list-moderators as on some of my mailing list.
This seems like a reasonable request for MM 3 if it isn't already planned.
I hope MM 3.x developer can considering it to make make list administrator live more easy :-)
-- syafril
Syafril Hermansyah
Syafril Hermansyah writes:
This is regularly requested, but I have a hard time understanding why it's useful, unless you have really horrible connectivity to the list admin pages. All it's going to do is fill up people's mailboxes with these messages, and everybody will get two messages per task instead of one. I think that the only reason this request keeps coming up is that until it's implemented nobody will notice the practical problems with it.
I administer about a dozen lists, and direct the "you have messages to moderate" notices to the bitbucket. I have a bookmark folder in Firefox with a bookmark for each list's moderation queue. When I'm about to do admin work (two or three times a day), the first thing I do is "Open All in Tabs", which usually takes 20-30 seconds. The password is in the bookmarks, which is a small security risk but I'm not particularly worried about these lists. Often I won't even wait, but immediately turn to email or such.
When I'm ready to do moderation, I just run down the tabs, closing each one when I'm done. I used to keep all the tabs open and minimize the window when done, but all too often I'd either forget to process a list, or forget to refresh its page so that it looked like an empty queue. The "close when done, open all in tabs when ready to start again" strategy works very well for me.
If you only have one list to moderate, but share it with others, then clicking an icon or selecting the window from a menu, and hitting refresh, is hardly more effort than dealing with an extra mail, especially once it becomes part of the routine.
IMO YMMV, but really I think you should look at reorganizing the existing workflow rather than adding to it.
On 10/13/2011 01:36 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
IMO YMMV, but really I think you should look at reorganizing the existing workflow rather than adding to it.
I commonly just act as list-maintainer for most mailing list that host on my list server, only a few list that I have job as list-administrator/list-moderators (technical mailing list).
Most mailing list are for small community (alumni of colleges, alumni of senior high schools, alumni of junior high schools etc) which I don't always follow, and the most list owner are lack of IT knowledge even too old to learn the new technology but they (the list owner) are capable enough to moderate the list, directing the discussion. They trust me to run mailing list on my list server instead of at yahoogroups or googlegroups because they know I will help them just in case problems.
So I speak for them, who has a little knowledge of IT but willing to run mailing list. The need of notification for me it just make sure the real list-owner already did the job after enough learning curve so I can leave it them alone someday.
-- syafril
Syafril Hermansyah
Syafril Hermansyah writes:
So I speak for them, who has a little knowledge of IT but willing to run mailing list.
Well, if they have little knowledge of IT, then you should do the workflow analysis for them. It's not a good idea to just do what users request, because they don't know what the capabilities are.
That's a different matter. If the only person who really needs the service is you, then I would think you would prefer a periodic summary of all lists. I don't think it's possible with the current version of bin/show_qfiles, but it shouldn't be too hard to improve that script to gather information from lists/*/pending.pck and sort them by time, oldest first. Then you know which lists haven't been moderated for quite a long time, and need attention. Then run that cron job daily (I would think that's enough for the kind of list you describe).
I'm sorry I don't have the time to do it, though. Maybe somebody already has such a script?
On 10/13/2011 04:24 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
That's what I did, I tried to tech them how to manage the mailing list and some of the result I am declaring here since I also lack of knowledge of Mailman and Postfix (I was running Listar aka ecartis with Exim since 2001, they said MailMan less techiest than Listar but too many hidden menu).
Indeed, actually listar/ecartis give me this kind of notice by adding me as (hidden) super-admin at any list and enable "daily/weekly report" (also "diagnostic report"), but I think no need for Mailman do by far, notices of someone did changes of membership/password is suffice for me, at least for now.
I don't have programming knowledge, so I can not do that myself :-( Anyhow, thanks for your attention
-- syafril
Syafril Hermansyah
Syafril Hermansyah wrote:
There is a script to list the pending requests for a list at <http://www.msapiro.net/scripts/list_pending>. This could be run via a shell script like
#!/bin/sh
cd /path/to/mailman
for list in bin/list_lists --bare; do
echo $list
bin/list_pending [desired options] $list
done
Or if desired, you could collect the output in a file and sort or otherwise manipulate it.
There is also the Mailman daily status report script (mmdsr) in the contrib directory of the Mailman distribution.
Finally, there is the daily summary of pending requests (produced by cron/checkdbs) that Mailman already produces for each list and mails to the admins and moderators.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
On 10/13/2011 11:24 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
There is a script to list the pending requests for a list at <http://www.msapiro.net/scripts/list_pending>.
Thanks, will take a look later.
-- syafril
Syafril Hermansyah
Syafril Hermansyah wrote:
Member added/removed is logged in Mailman's 'subscribe' log. Disposition of moderated post is logged in Mailman's 'vette' log.
These logs do not say which admin performed the action. for that, you have to correlate with the web server logs which can give you at least the IP the POST transaction came from.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
participants (3)
-
Mark Sapiro -
Stephen J. Turnbull -
Syafril Hermansyah