Target individual list member with sub-addressing when sending?
Hello all. I am new here, but trying my best to learn as much as possible. I searched far and wide through the Internet/FAQ and archives, but I think my question is rather unique.
My Setup:
Ubuntu 9.04 with newest Postfix and Dovcot running
The steps I took and have done are as follows:
I have a list setup for a very small number of subscribers – 10 to 20 max.The mailing list address is australia@lists.seishinonline.jp (It’s for a group of people hosting some students from Austrailia)Only one or two addresses can post to the list. All other mailings will be rejected.I have it setup to never show the “poster’s” address, instead using the mailing list address.In addition to number 4, I setup a special “reply-to” address where all replies should go to.Because the vast majority of the subscribers will be using their cell-phones’ built-in capability for e-mail, I found out step 5 actually won’t work for them. (Yay Japan…)Because of 6, I created a re-write rule in Postfix to force all the From: headers to be the “reply-to” address.The “reply-to” address is set to forward the e-mails to the original list “poster” inside of Postfix.
Up to this point, everything works ok. My question is:
After receiving a message through the “reply-to” address, I want the original poster to be able to send a single message back to the “replier,” possibly answering some question. Problem: I can’t have the “poster” know the individual address of the “replier,” nor can I have the “replier” know the direct address of the “poster.” Would it be possible to use some sort of sub-addressing, extended addressing, plus addressing, etc. to send a message to an individual subscriber based on a “subscriber” username or something? For example sending to Australia+KenYamaguchi@lists.seishinonline.jp would cause the e-mail to only go to the subscriber associated with “KenYamaguchi” and NOT the whole list. This way, neither side knows the other’s “direct mail address.” Is this possible? Thanks in advance.
chuckyrose
on 4/28/09 1:14 AM, Charles Rosenberg said:
After receiving a message through the “reply-to” address, I want the original poster to be able to send a single message back to the “replier,” possibly answering some question. Problem: I can’t have the “poster” know the individual address of the “replier,” nor can I have the “replier” know the direct address of the “poster.” Would it be possible to use some sort of sub-addressing, extended addressing, plus addressing, etc. to send a message to an individual subscriber based on a “subscriber” username or something? For example sending to Australia+KenYamaguchi@lists.seishinonline.jp would cause the e-mail to only go to the subscriber associated with “KenYamaguchi” and NOT the whole list. This way, neither side knows the other’s “direct mail address.” Is this possible? Thanks in advance.
You're talking about something we call an "anonymizer". Mailman can do that to a limited degree, but only in one direction -- you permanently strip out the identifiable information about the sender, and then post the message to the list. There's no way to get that information back.
If you want a two-way anonymizing system, that is something you would have to implement outside of Mailman. There are such systems in existence elsewhere, but it is very tricky to get these sorts of things right, and you really want to make sure you do get them right in cases like this -- you don't want some stalker to be able to get information about host families or prospective students and then be able to use that to cause harm to them.
I'd suggest that you go find some of those two-way anonymizing systems and you talk to them about how you might be able to set them up alongside a mailing list system, and how they could potentially be used in conjunction with the mailing list system.
-- Brad Knowles <brad@shub-internet.org> If you like Jazz/R&B guitar, check out LinkedIn Profile: my friend bigsbytracks on YouTube at <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu> http://preview.tinyurl.com/bigsbytracks
Charles Rosenberg wrote:
After receiving a message through the “reply-to” address, I want the original poster to be able to send a single message back to the “replier,” possibly answering some question. Problem: I can’t have the “poster” know the individual address of the “replier,” nor can I have the “replier” know the direct address of the “poster.” Would it be possible to use some sort of sub-addressing, extended addressing, plus addressing, etc. to send a message to an individual subscriber based on a “subscriber” username or something? For example sending to Australia+KenYamaguchi@lists.seishinonline.jp would cause the e-mail to only go to the subscriber associated with “KenYamaguchi” and NOT the whole list. This way, neither side knows the other’s “direct mail address.” Is this possible? Thanks in advance.
Not in Mailman without significant modification to the Mailman code.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
On 04/28/09 01:14, Charles Rosenberg wrote:
In addition to number 4, I setup a special "reply-to" address
Is the "reply-to" address set to the mailing list or a different address? (I'm guessing different but I figured I had better ask to be sure.)
Because the vast majority of the subscribers will be using
Don't you just love half @$$ implementations... (I'm going to digress before I even get started.)
Because of 6, I created a re-write rule in Postfix to force
*nod*
The "reply-to" address is set to forward the e-mails to the
Are you saying that Postfix has been configured such that the email address that replies are directed to (via "Reply-To:" or "From:") is forwarded / redirected in to the address used submit new posts to the list or somehow magically directing to the email address of the person that posted. (Again I want to be sure that there is no collision with the "post" address.)
After receiving a message through the "reply-to" address, I want the original poster to be able to send a single message back to the "replier," possibly answering some question.
Ok, is this a correct understanding of the sequence of events?
- Original poster sends an original message to the mailing list.
- Mailing list sends the original message to all subscribers with a custom Reply-To: / From: address.
- Responder replies to the original message to the mailing list via the custom Reply-To: / From: address.
- Mailing list sends the reply message to all subscribers with a (different?) custom Reply-To: / From: address.
- Responder replies to the reply message to the original poster via the (different) custom Reply-To: / From: address.
Problem: I can't have the "poster" know the individual address of the "replier," nor can I have the "replier" know the direct address of the "poster."
Ok.
Would it be ok for subscribers to know other subscribers addresses /if/ the addresses were ""forwarders for the mailing list? I.e. when ever someone sent a message through the list their From: address would be translated to their special ""list address? Similarly any messages sent to these ""list addresses would then be forwarded on to the real address. All the while people not knowing each others ""real addresses, just the ""list addresses.
Would it be possible to use some sort of sub-addressing, extended addressing, plus addressing, etc. to send a message to an individual subscriber based on a "subscriber" username or something? For example sending to Australia+KenYamaguchi@lists.seishinonline.jp would cause the e-mail to only go to the subscriber associated with "KenYamaguchi" and NOT the whole list. This way, neither side knows the other's "direct mail address." Is this possible? Thanks in advance.
I think the conditional mass forwarding you are asking for is beyond the scope of Mailman. However, that being said, I think it would be possible to set up something to help decide where to send messages and conditionally send messages to the mailing list or individual recipients.
Grant. . . .
Thank you to everyone who replied and gave me ideas and directions to pursue further. After reading all of the replies so far, I feel that I should clarify and respond to some of the questions raised to help me and others:
Brad Knowles wrote: If you want a two-way anonymizing system, that is something you would have to implement outside of Mailman.
I'd suggest that you go find some of those two-way anonymizing systems and you talk to them about how you might be able to set them up alongside a mailing list system, and how they could potentially be used in conjunction with the mailing list system.
Thank you for this suggestion, Brad. I did take a look around to see what was out there. To be honest, the ones I saw seemed to be a bit overkill for what I need. After thinking about the setup a lot more, I determined that contrary to my original post, it is OK if the "designated poster" sees and knows the list member's e-mail addresses when they use the "reply-to" mail address. What can NOT be known by the list members is the "designated poster's" direct e-mail address. I will look some more on this topic, thank you.
In addition to number 4, I setup a special "reply-to" addressIs the "reply-to" address set to the mailing list or a different address? (I'm guessing different but I figured I had better ask to be sure.)
I'm sorry that I wasn't clear in the beginning. There is only ONE, maybe two(besides me the admin) "designated poster(s)" to the mailing list. The "reply-to" address is completely different from the list address. It is one specifically created for replies to this specific mailing list. It is not used anywhere else.
The "reply-to" address is set to forward the e-mails to theAre you saying that Postfix has been configured such that the email address that replies are directed to (via "Reply-To:" or "From:") is forwarded / redirected in to the address used submit new posts to the list or somehow magically directing to the email address of the person that posted. (Again I want to be sure that there is no collision with the "post" address.)
Again, sorry that this wasn't clear. Since there is only one, maybe two(besides me the admin) "designated posters," Postfix redirects all replies to the "reply-to" address to a specific e-mail address, namely that of the "designated poster." The "designated poster" is our school's Host Family coordinator and she will be the only one who will be posting to the list. Since Postfix knows her direct address, all mail directed at the "reply-to" address will be forwarded to her. (I will probably set it up to send me or someone else in the school's administration a copy as well just so we see what is going out and in.)
After receiving a message through the "reply-to" address, I want the original poster to be able to send a single message back to the "replier," possibly answering some question.
Ok, is this a correct understanding of the sequence of events?
- Original poster sends an original message to the mailing list.
- Mailing list sends the original message to all subscribers with a custom Reply-To: / From: address.
- Responder replies to the original message to the mailing list via the custom Reply-To: / From: address.
- Mailing list sends the reply message to all subscribers with a (different?) custom Reply-To: / From: address.
- Responder replies to the reply message to the original poster via the (different) custom Reply-To: / From: address.
Close. Like I mentioned above, since I wasn't clear in the original post(my fault), I hope the above explanation clears it up. Just to summarize like you have done:
- Original poster("designated poster" - our Host Family Coordinator) posts a message to the mailing list.
- Mailman sends the message out to the mailing list.
- Postfix rewrites the outgoing mails' headers so that it looks like it comes from a custom, specific "reply-to" address.
- List member replies to the original post via the "reply-to" address.
- Postfix takes the reply to the "reply-to" address and forwards it to the Original Poster("designated poster"), not the entire list.
- Problem arises at this point. Now our "designated poster" wishes to send a reply to the reply, not the whole list.
Problem: I can't have the "poster" know the individual address of the "replier," nor can I have the "replier" know the direct address of the "poster."
Ok.
I said in my original post that this was the problem, but I was partially wrong(again, my fault). I can't have any list members know the "designated poster's" address, but the "designated poster" CAN see and know the address of an individual list member without any really problems. The "designated poster" can't use this information to contact the list member directly however since if the "designated poster" simply uses her cell phone's "reply" function, the recipient will now know the "designated poster's" direct e-mail address.
Would it be ok for subscribers to know other subscribers addresses /if/ the addresses were ""forwarders for the mailing list? I.e. when ever someone sent a message through the list their From: address would be translated to their special ""list address? Similarly any messages sent to these ""list addresses would then be forwarded on to the real address. All the while people not knowing each others ""real addresses, just the ""list addresses.
To be honest, I think what you are talking about here is one potential solution that I was originally thinking about. What I was thinking about was creating the list as an "umbrella" list and creating mailing lists for each specific recipient I want. This would mean that if I wanted to make it as seamless as possible, I would have to have Postfix do some work too. To summarize:
- Create the "main" list, austrailia@lists.domain.com as an umbrella list.
- Create an individual mailing list address for each member we want to get e-mail. i.e. KenYamaguchi@lists.domain.com, JoeTanaka@lists.domain.com, etc. and have each individual mailing list have only one subscriber, namely the person we want getting our e-mails.
- Subscribe each of the "individual" mailing lists to the umbrella list.
- Continue to rewrite the mail headers to show the "designated posters" messages as coming from the "reply-to" address.
- Configure Postfix to rewrite the from headers on the replies to the "reply-to" address so the "designated poster" automatically sees the associated "individual" mailing list for that list member. i.e. Postfix will rewrite kyamaguchi@docomo.ne.jp --> KenYamaguchi@lists.domain.com when kyamaguchi@docomo.ne.jp replies to the "reply-to" address.
- Once the "designated poster" gets the reply, she only has to hit her "reply" button to reply to the reply which should go to the "individual" mailing list.(e.g. KenYamaguchi@lists.domain.com)
- Configure Postfix to then rewrite our "reply-to-the-reply" header to strip out our "designated poster's" address and replace it with the "reply-to" address we want all replies to go to. i.e. [From: designatedpostersaddress@softbank.ne.jp] --> [From: reply-to-address@domain.com]
First question about this is that it seems like it would work. Would it?
Second question, is there an easier way? This way I have to manually "fix" and configure addresses in Mailman and Postfix and while I don't anticipate more than about 20 or 30 list members at most, it does mean I have to do it all by hand.
Good side is that the list will only be active for a week or so. After that, all data gets wiped.
Would it be possible to use some sort of sub-addressing, extended addressing, plus addressing, etc. to send a message to an individual subscriber based on a "subscriber" username or something? For example sending to Australia+KenYamaguchi@lists.seishinonline.jp would cause the e-mail to only go to the subscriber associated with "KenYamaguchi" and NOT the whole list. This way, neither side knows the other's "direct mail address." Is this possible? Thanks in advance.
I think the conditional mass forwarding you are asking for is beyond the scope of Mailman. However, that being said, I think it would be possible to set up something to help decide where to send messages and conditionally send messages to the mailing list or individual recipients.
I guess since you are not the only one to mention that this would be very difficult in Mailman as-is, I should think about my idea I just posted above this paragraph using the individual lists idea. As for your conditionally sending messages to the list or individual members, how powerful is Mailman in setting up something like that? Just for future reference.
Thanks again.
Charles
On 04/29/09 19:43, Charles Rosenberg wrote:
Thank you for this suggestion, Brad. I did take a look around to see what was out there. To be honest, the ones I saw seemed to be a bit overkill for what I need. After thinking about the setup a lot more, I determined that contrary to my original post, it is OK if the "designated poster" sees and knows the list member's e-mail addresses when they use the "reply-to" mail address. What can NOT be known by the list members is the "designated poster's" direct e-mail address. I will look some more on this topic, thank you.
Ok... This helps in that the requirements are a bit clearer. I think this also helps by making the requirements a bit easier to fulfill.
I'm sorry that I wasn't clear in the beginning. There is only ONE, maybe two(besides me the admin) "designated poster(s)" to the mailing list. The "reply-to" address is completely different from the list address. It is one specifically created for replies to this specific mailing list. It is not used anywhere else.
*nod*
(I think I have what I think is a fairly simple and elegant solution, one which you sort of touch on before.)
To be honest, I think what you are talking about here is one potential solution that I was originally thinking about. What I was thinking about was creating the list as an "umbrella" list and creating mailing lists for each specific recipient I want. This would mean that if I wanted to make it as seamless as possible, I would have to have Postfix do some work too. To summarize:
I'm also thinking two differently behaving mailing lists that are closely linked to each other.
- Create the "main" list, austrailia@lists.domain.com as an umbrella list.
I don't know if it will be an "umbrella" list or not, but that is more syntax than any thing else.
- Create an individual mailing list address for each member we want to get e-mail. i.e. KenYamaguchi@lists.domain.com, JoeTanaka@lists.domain.com, etc. and have each individual mailing list have only one subscriber, namely the person we want getting our e-mails.
I don't think you will want to create a separate list for each subscriber, that would be way over kill.
- Subscribe each of the "individual" mailing lists to the umbrella list.
Yes.
- Continue to rewrite the mail headers to show the "designated posters" messages as coming from the "reply-to" address.
- Configure Postfix to rewrite the from headers on the replies to the "reply-to" address so the "designated poster" automatically sees the associated "individual" mailing list for that list member. i.e. Postfix will rewrite kyamaguchi@docomo.ne.jp --> KenYamaguchi@lists.domain.com when kyamaguchi@docomo.ne.jp replies to the "reply-to" address.
I'm thinking that Mailman may be able to do what you are wanting to do after all. That is /IF/ we are very careful with what we do.
- Once the "designated poster" gets the reply, she only has to hit her "reply" button to reply to the reply which should go to the "individual" mailing list.(e.g. KenYamaguchi@lists.domain.com)
Ok...
Can the "designated poser" reply (from his/her ""public address) directly to the recipient that replied to the original post?
- Configure Postfix to then rewrite our "reply-to-the-reply" header to strip out our "designated poster's" address and replace it with the "reply-to" address we want all replies to go to. i.e. [From: designatedpostersaddress@softbank.ne.jp] --> [From: reply-to-address@domain.com]
Ok.
Now let me lay out what's in my head:
Create a "designated posters" list.
Create a "subscribers" list.
Create a "reply" list.
Subscribe all designated posters (including admins) to both the "designated posters" and the "reply" list.
Subscribe the "subscribers" list to the "designated posters" list.
Subscribe the subscribers to the "subscribers" list.
Configure the "designated posters" list to fully hide the identity of the real sender and make messages appear as if they came from the "designated posters" list.
Configure the "subscribers" list to direct replies to the "reply" list.
This is where I'm not 100% what to do. So here's how I see things working up to this point.
Designated posters send from what ever address they want to the "designated posters" list.
The "designated posters" list hides all personal information and sends the post to all subscribers including all designated posters and the "subscribers" list, thus including all real subscribers.
The "subscribers" list sends the message on to all real subscribers.
Subscribers reply to the message they received from the "subscribers" list which is sent to the "reply" list.
The "reply" list will send the message on to all designated posters unmodified. This will allow the designated posters to see the real email address of the subscriber which they can reply to.
This is where my I'm stuck. How to have replies from the designated poster be sanitized and sent back to the subscriber that is replying. I wonder if a two way anonymizer would help here.
First question about this is that it seems like it would work. Would it?
I don't know for sure, but I think you are going to get stuck at the same point that I am, namely hiding the reply from the original poster back to the subscriber that replied.
Second question, is there an easier way? This way I have to manually "fix" and configure addresses in Mailman and Postfix and while I don't anticipate more than about 20 or 30 list members at most, it does mean I have to do it all by hand.
I don't know.
Good side is that the list will only be active for a week or so. After that, all data gets wiped.
Yesh. That makes me question if this is worth the effort.
I guess since you are not the only one to mention that this would be very difficult in Mailman as-is, I should think about my idea I just posted above this paragraph using the individual lists idea. As for your conditionally sending messages to the list or individual members, how powerful is Mailman in setting up something like that? Just for future reference.
Let me share the key points in my head to see if it will spark any one else in to helping solve this puzzle.
The "original posters" mailing list is used to sanitize the original poster's address and to make sure that all original posters are kept in the loop.
The "subscribers" list is responsible for doing the mass delivery.
The "reply" list is used to make sure that all original posters are kept in the loop with out sending the message back to the subscribers.
I will do some more thinking about ways to allow the original posters to reply to replies that come in to the "reply" list from subscribers while hiding the original posters address.
Thanks again.
*nod*
Grant. . . .
Thanks again for the reply. They have given me some ideas to think about to make it all more streamlined. Please forgive me again for not making something clear enough in my previous reply.
Grant wrote:
- Create the "main" list, austrailia@lists.domain.com as an umbrella list.
- Create an individual mailing list address for each member we want to get e-mail. i.e. KenYamaguchi@lists.domain.com, JoeTanaka@lists.domain.com, etc. and have each individual mailing list have only one subscriber, namely the person we want getting our e-mails.
I don't think you will want to create a separate list for each subscriber, that would be way over kill.
The reason for giving each member a separate, individual mailing list is precisely how I was thinking of sending a mail to the "subscriber" "directly" all the while sanitzing the "designated poster's" address. I explain more below.
- Subscribe each of the "individual" mailing lists to the umbrella list.
Yes.
- Continue to rewrite the mail headers to show the "designated posters" messages as coming from the "reply-to" address.
I am already rewriting mail headers in Postfix so that ALL mail going out to the mail list, (austrailia@lists.domain.com) through Postfix(AFTER it has been processed by Mailman) shows as coming from reply-to-austrailia@domain.com As I mentioned before, using ONLY the built-in Mailman support for redirecting all replies to a specific address doesn't work for me because most of the people involved will be getting the messages on their cell phone. The cell phones here don't seem to understand the "Reply-to: " part of e-mail headers. Thus, I have to completely rewrite the headers. (Not smartphones. Japan has had cell-phone e-mail in common use for about 8-10 years now. Ask anyone in Japan for their e-mail address and they won't give you a computer-based one, but the one for their cell phone)
- Configure Postfix to rewrite the from headers on the replies to the "reply-to" address so the "designated poster" automatically sees the associated "individual" mailing list for that list member. i.e. Postfix will rewrite kyamaguchi@docomo.ne.jp --> KenYamaguchi@lists.domain.com when kyamaguchi@docomo.ne.jp replies to the "reply-to" address.
I'm thinking that Mailman may be able to do what you are wanting to do after all. That is /IF/ we are very careful with what we do.
I'm sorry that I wasn't clear with this step. What this step implies is that Postfix ALSO knows which subscriber is associated with which individual list. Postfix will check any mail coming in to the "reply-to" address and then rewrite the incoming message headers with the associated individual mailing list for that subscriber. Example: Mr. Ken Yamaguchi is a subscriber and he replies to the "reply-to" address. His cell-phone e-mail address will show up in the message's From portion when it hits the Postfix mail server. Before delivering the message on to the "designated poster" via the "reply-to" address, Postfix rewrites Mr. Ken Yamaguchi's message's From header to be that of the individual Mailman list address that was created specifically for him. Now, the message is ready to be sent off to the "designated poster" with the "updated/new" From address which is the Mailman list associated with just him- KenYamaguchi@lists.domain.com
- Once the "designated poster" gets the reply, she only has to hit her "reply" button to reply to the reply which should go to the "individual" mailing list.(e.g. KenYamaguchi@lists.domain.com)
Ok...
Can the "designated poser" reply (from his/her ""public address) directly to the recipient that replied to the original post?
Yes, because of step 7 below, which is where I wasn't clear enough before and I apologize for.
- Configure Postfix to then rewrite our "reply-to-the-reply" header to strip out our "designated poster's" address and replace it with the "reply-to" address we want all replies to go to. i.e. [From: designatedpostersaddress@softbank.ne.jp] --> [From: reply-to-address@domain.com]
Ok.
Here is where Postfix has to pull its weight again. Now, after 5 above, our "designated poster" has a message from Mr. Ken Yamaguchi, but with a From: address that goes to his individual Mailman list, NOT his direct e-mail address. When our designated poster hits "REPLY" and sends a message, of course the message will initially contain our "designated poster's" real e-mail address. That is ok because once the message gets to Postfix, before passing the message on to Mailman, Postfix will rewrite the From: headers on THIS e-mail too to change it from the "designated poster's" email address to that of the "reply-to" address. Once the From is rewritten with the "updated/new" address(the "reply-to" address) Postfix hands the now sanitized message off to Mailman which will do what is necessary to get the message to Mr. Ken Yamaguchi. The "individual" mailing list address is key to this. It forces the returning messages from the "designated poster" to go through the server where it can be sanitized.
After thinking about this, since the "designated poster's" address gets sanitized in the beginning anyways, setting up the Postfix rewrite rule in step 4 carefully would also sanitize the "designated poster's" address at this step too without too much work. Either way I guess. Anways...
Now let me lay out what's in my head: ...
- Create a "reply" list.
I like the idea of a "reply" list. I might see if that would work better than just an address.
- The "reply" list will send the message on to all designated posters unmodified. This will allow the designated posters to see the real email address of the subscriber which they can reply to.
See above about this. Actually, what I was thinking was that Postfix WOULD modify the messages.
- This is where my I'm stuck. How to have replies from the designated poster be sanitized and sent back to the subscriber that is replying. I wonder if a two way anonymizer would help here.
I hope that my explanation above is much clearer this time. Sorry about the confusion. You are right. This is the point that causes the problems. That is why I was thinking of having ALL messages go through the Mailman/Postfix server by using "individual" mailing list addresses for EACH subscriber. If I can make ALL messages go through the server, then I can rewrite what I need to to make sure the subscribers don't know the "designated posters'" addresses. As a side benefit, not necessary at all, this way the "designated posters" also won't see the subscribers' direct e-mail addresses.
What do people think? To me this seems like it will work, but I can't be sure until I try it out.
I will do some more thinking about ways to allow the original posters to reply to replies that come in to the "reply" list from subscribers while hiding the original posters address.
Thank you very much for taking the time to think and help me out about this. Even just having someone to bounce the ideas off of is a big help for me getting this all worked out. I appreciate it.
Charles
participants (4)
-
Brad Knowles -
Charles Rosenberg -
Grant Taylor -
Mark Sapiro