Hi,
Are there currently *any* web forum(s) that enable forum/mailman mirroring ? In other words a Mailman email going to a web forum and vica versa ?
I believe that something like this could work with phpbb2 but not the current release. Can anyone help please ?
Regards, John.
On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 06:49:44PM +1100, John Fitzsimons wrote:
Are there currently *any* web forum(s) that enable forum/mailman mirroring ? In other words a Mailman email going to a web forum and vica versa ?
Not quite forum, but there's a start in processing/handling email via Wordpress: it sort of works most of the time in the few cases where I'm using that (although in those cases, that's soon to change to generating the content in $CMS, and thence mailing via the CMS'd version).
The Wordpress thingy turns email -> database record(s), from which it ought to be moderately easy to map those fields to appropriate ones for the forum.
Perhaps use Mailman -> Wordpress -> [script] Forum, or maybe have a look at the Wordpress importer, and adapt that to suit the fields for your forum database. Most of that sort of thing (forums, wordpress) uses pretty standard approaches, IME.
For getting forum -> list, it ought to be quite trivial to subscribe the list to the forum's tracking wotsit, although, then you're reproducing content (with the originating author's consent?), and there's no guarantee in avoid duplication.
I can't really think of a way to maintain an up-to date email thread in a forum, allowing posting to both; although, an afterthought may be to use NNTP for both... but that's quite perverse.
(Do forum softwares still support NNTP feeds, or does one need to use "RSS" or "XML" or one of those other new-fangled things to import content?)
Others may have better 'solutions'.
-- ``I speak better English than this villain Bush.'' (Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf, attrib.)
On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 14:52:25 +0000, Adam McGreggor wrote:
On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 06:49:44PM +1100, John Fitzsimons wrote:
Hi Adam,
Are there currently *any* web forum(s) that enable forum/mailman mirroring ? In other words a Mailman email going to a web forum and vica versa ?
< snip >
The Wordpress thingy turns email -> database record(s), from which it ought to be moderately easy to map those fields to appropriate ones for the forum.
< snip >
Well, there are a few "issues" here. I am totally unfamiliar with how Wordpress works, I wouldn't know how/where to map anything, I don't have root access to the hosting site that has my Mailman install.
Those three items make things a bit difficult. :-(
I can't really think of a way to maintain an up-to date email thread in a forum, allowing posting to both; although, an afterthought may be
Well, it has been done a number of times. With a number of forums. The trouble is that upgrading forums generally stops things working and/or one needs root access to install. Something not everyone has.
Here is an example IF one wants to pay the huge cost of their software..
http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=151222
to use NNTP for both... but that's quite perverse.
I would prefer to/from NNTP. Think I might start a new thread for that.
(Do forum softwares still support NNTP feeds, or does one need to use "RSS" or "XML" or one of those other new-fangled things to import content?)
Others may have better 'solutions'.
Thanks for your comments.
Regards, John.
On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 09:44:44AM +1100, John Fitzsimons wrote:
Well, there are a few "issues" here. I am totally unfamiliar with how Wordpress works, I wouldn't know how/where to map anything, I don't have root access to the hosting site that has my Mailman install.
http://core.svn.wordpress.org/trunk/wp-mail.phpis the handler in Wordpress; it's quite well documented, in-line, even if you don't understand PHP. If you know how/where your forum sorts stuff, that might be a starting point. It doesn't need root; although the script is typically hit by cron.
Those three items make things a bit difficult. :-(
I can't really think of a way to maintain an up-to date email thread in a forum, allowing posting to both; although, an afterthought may be
Well, it has been done a number of times. With a number of forums. The trouble is that upgrading forums generally stops things working and/or one needs root access to install. Something not everyone has.
Here is an example IF one wants to pay the huge cost of their software..
well that's another candidate for justtellmethefuckingprice.com... I really should find some time to build that.
Reading the first bit of that thread (my eyes! my eyes!), that modification appears to be something that polls a mailbox for new stuff and processes it as it arrives, and pushes stuff from the forum back to mail. The "setup a separate email address to use for each forum that you have this enabled for" line makes me think that.
to use NNTP for both... but that's quite perverse.
I would prefer to/from NNTP. Think I might start a new thread for that.
Based on the above (the plugin), IMAP(S) might also work.
-- ``In Lent she ate onion soup and gave up drink; but otherwise she must have drunk the maximum compatible with survival and sanity.'' (Telegraph Obit of Jennifer Paterson, one of the 'Two Fat Ladies')
John Fitzsimons wrote:
Are there currently *any* web forum(s) that enable forum/mailman mirroring ? In other words a Mailman email going to a web forum and vica versa ?
Mailman can gateway a lists to/from a Usenet group. The gateway is via NNTP. If the Usenet group is also carried on Google Groups for example, you then have web access to the group, but Mailman can't directly gateway to/from Google or any other non-NNTP service.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
On Dec 21, 2009, at 2:49 AM, John Fitzsimons wrote:
Are there currently *any* web forum(s) that enable forum/mailman mirroring ? In other words a Mailman email going to a web forum and vica versa ?
I would invite anybody interested in exploring this to join us over in mailman-developers. This is something I'd love to see for Mailman 3.
-Barry
On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:06:29 -0500, Barry Warsaw wrote:
On Dec 21, 2009, at 2:49 AM, John Fitzsimons wrote:
Are there currently *any* web forum(s) that enable forum/mailman mirroring ? In other words a Mailman email going to a web forum and vica versa ?
I would invite anybody interested in exploring this to join us over in mailman-developers. This is something I'd love to see for Mailman 3.
-Barry
Would there be any point in us "non programmers" doing that ? Apart from being unable to contribute much, if anything, we would then need to read a whole pile of posts that are probably too "technical" to be of much interest.
FWIW I suggest the following...
A new mailing list specifically for this.
A new "announce" mailing list to announce when a "release" is ready for testing.
Regards, John.
John Fitzsimons writes:
FWIW I suggest the following...
A new mailing list specifically for this.
A new "announce" mailing list to announce when a "release" is ready for testing.
There isn't enough traffic on mailman-developers to justify either of those IMO. I certainly wouldn't subscribe to either one myself, and I suspect Barry himself would forget they exist -- he didn't say he was planning to do any coding himself, almost certainly not soon.
If you are not going to participate in the development list (and given what you've said so far, you'd be welcome but I think likely it would not be an efficient use of *your* time), wait for an announcement here and/or on the generic announce list (ISTR there is a mailman-announce list).
John Fitzsimons wrote:
Are there currently *any* web forum(s) that enable forum/mailman mirroring ? In other words a Mailman email going to a web forum and vica versa ?
I believe that something like this could work with phpbb2 but not the current release. Can anyone help please ?
Not yet, but I'd like there to be, because I think a web forum could be a more user-friendly (or at least user-familiar) way for us to handle archives. I started looking in to it some time ago, but life happened and the code I'd hoped to write didn't.
Terri
On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 13:21:10 -0500, Terri Oda wrote:
John Fitzsimons wrote:
Hi Terri,
Are there currently *any* web forum(s) that enable forum/mailman mirroring ? In other words a Mailman email going to a web forum and vica versa ?
I believe that something like this could work with phpbb2 but not the current release. Can anyone help please ?
Not yet, but I'd like there to be, because I think a web forum could be a more user-friendly (or at least user-familiar) way for us to handle archives. I started looking in to it some time ago, but life happened and the code I'd hoped to write didn't.
I HATE web forums but know people who like them. The advantage of a web forum <> email situation is IMO "participation".
Suppose 10 people who dislike forums are on an email list. Suppose 10 people who dislike email lists are on a forum.
With mirroring all 20 could be talking to each other. Each using his/her preferred posting method.
Lastly, some people prefer both. Eg. email from home and web forum posting from work.
Regards, John.
On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 18:49:44 +1100, John Fitzsimons <johnf@net2000.com.au> wrote:
Hi,
Are there currently *any* web forum(s) that enable forum/mailman mirroring ? In other words a Mailman email going to a web forum and vica versa ?
I believe that something like this could work with phpbb2 but not the current release. Can anyone help please ?
Regards, John
I am currently working on a bridge for phpBB3. What I am attempting to do is have messages from the list be put into forums based on "topics" and into threads based on reference-id/subjects and reply back to the list with messages posted to specified forums (adding a specified tag for topic detection).
I will post word when/if I have significant progress.
Richard Damon
John Fitzsimons writes:
Are there currently *any* web forum(s) that enable forum/mailman mirroring ? In other words a Mailman email going to a web forum and vica versa ?
Precisely what does a "web forum" do? Would Trac or Roundup serve?
These are nominally "issue trackers" (and Trac is bundled with a wiki which might or might not be attractive for your purpose). However, what they basically do is manage threads. Roundup is quite good at integrating mail and web submissions at least for its purpose (but it doesn't thread automatically; instead, each issue might be thought of as a manually specified thread). I don't know how well Trac handles mail submissions, I only use the web interface of the Tracs I deal with.
Roundup is a hairball, but very very configurable. Trac is a lot more slick but at least in the incarnation where I met it (bugs.macosforge.org circa summer 2007) it was a ponderous unconfigurable beast requiring massive admin attention to get the smallest tweak implemented (or maybe it's just that the MacPorts folks can't admin their way out of a paper bag, I've seen other symptoms to suggest that's the case, so don't take this as entirely negative on Trac -- not to mention that lots of people love it).
I've briefly mentioned integrating some Roundup functions with the mailman interface to Barry but that hasn't gone anywhere yet.
Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
Precisely what does a "web forum" do? Would Trac or Roundup serve?
Are you seriously asking about what are web forums? There's about 38.63 gazillion of them on the net. A couple I'm working on are at
and
If I misunderstood your query, I do apologize.
mjb.
Mark J Bradakis writes:
Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
Precisely what does a "web forum" do? Would Trac or Roundup serve?
Sorry, I omitted the words "for you". I'm interested in the OP's requirements, not in the available software, which matches his requirements more or less closely (all too often, "less").
Are you seriously asking about what are web forums? There's about 38.63 gazillion of them on the net.
38.63 gazillion = 1 plague, if I recall my biometric units correctly.<wink>
On 2009-12-21 10:01 PM, Mark J Bradakis wrote:
Are you seriously asking about what are web forums? There's about 38.63 gazillion of them on the net. A couple I'm working on are at
and
Please - not to start a 'distro' war, but if work is going to be done, I hope it will be done in a modular fashion so that other forum software (with a plugin architecture) will be able to work with it.
I wouldn't touch phpBB again with a ten meter optical fiber - and yes, this is from personal experience, and lots of corrupted data - and googling will reveal tons of similar experiences.
Simple Machines is the one to pick if you are going to support only one.
--
Best regards,
Charles
On Dec 22, 2009, at 7:47 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:
Please - not to start a 'distro' war, but if work is going to be done, I hope it will be done in a modular fashion so that other forum software (with a plugin architecture) will be able to work with it.
Absolutely, just like we support multiple MTAs, web servers, etc.
-Barry
Barry Warsaw writes:
On Dec 22, 2009, at 7:47 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:
Please - not to start a 'distro' war, but if work is going to be done, I hope it will be done in a modular fashion so that other forum software (with a plugin architecture) will be able to work with it.
Absolutely, just like we support multiple MTAs, web servers, etc.
Sounds non-trivial. ISTM that this would conflict with pluggable archivers at least, and quite likely with other features of Mailman, since the functionality of Mailman, archivers, and forums all overlap substantially.
On Dec 23, 2009, at 5:50 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
Barry Warsaw writes:
On Dec 22, 2009, at 7:47 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:
Please - not to start a 'distro' war, but if work is going to be done, I hope it will be done in a modular fashion so that other forum software (with a plugin architecture) will be able to work with it.
Absolutely, just like we support multiple MTAs, web servers, etc.
Sounds non-trivial. ISTM that this would conflict with pluggable archivers at least, and quite likely with other features of Mailman, since the functionality of Mailman, archivers, and forums all overlap substantially.
Mailman 3 is already more flexibly w.r.t. archivers, in the sense that we define an interface between Mailman and generic archiver, and then implement a number of modules to support everything from Pipermail to mail-archive.com to MHonArc. We should take the same approach with forum integration.
-Barry
Barry Warsaw writes:
Mailman 3 is already more flexibly w.r.t. archivers, in the sense that we define an interface between Mailman and generic archiver, and then implement a number of modules to support everything from Pipermail to mail-archive.com to MHonArc. We should take the same approach with forum integration.
Sure. My point is that forum and archivers are likely to step on each others' toes. Isn't that the case? I would think you want one or the other, but not both. Or am I just seeing bogies?
On Dec 23, 2009, at 11:47 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
Barry Warsaw writes:
Mailman 3 is already more flexibly w.r.t. archivers, in the sense that we define an interface between Mailman and generic archiver, and then implement a number of modules to support everything from Pipermail to mail-archive.com to MHonArc. We should take the same approach with forum integration.
Sure. My point is that forum and archivers are likely to step on each others' toes. Isn't that the case? I would think you want one or the other, but not both. Or am I just seeing bogies?
I don't know about bogies, but maybe overly festive elves? :)
I agree they overlap, but I think they're different media, and I think they serve different purposes. They have to work together, but they can coexist.
-Barry
On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 07:47:40 -0500, Tanstaafl wrote:
< snip >
if work is going to be done, I hope it will be done in a modular fashion so that other forum software (with a plugin architecture) will be able to work with it.
< snip >
Simple Machines is the one to pick if you are going to support only one.
Looks like an example of very good forum software. Thanks for the reference. :-)
Regards, John.
On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:59:40 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
John Fitzsimons writes:
Are there currently *any* web forum(s) that enable forum/mailman mirroring ? In other words a Mailman email going to a web forum and vica versa ?
Precisely what does a "web forum" do?
Have threaded web discussions. Eg.
Would Trac
Never heard of it. Doesn't look remotely like the above. IMO clearly for those who are familiar with Linux and/or are programmers.
or Roundup serve?
Much the same thing. I don't even see any web forums at that site.
These are nominally "issue trackers" (and Trac is bundled with a wiki which might or might not be attractive for your purpose). However, what they basically do is manage threads. Roundup is quite good at integrating mail and web submissions at least for its purpose (but it doesn't thread automatically; instead, each issue might be thought of as a manually specified thread). I don't know how well Trac handles mail submissions, I only use the web interface of the Tracs I deal with.
Roundup is a hairball,
Sounds like something one should warn one's cat about. Or one's barber.
but very very configurable.
If one is a Linux guru. That isn't me.
Trac is a lot more slick but at least in the incarnation where I met it (bugs.macosforge.org circa summer 2007) it was a ponderous unconfigurable beast requiring massive admin attention to get the smallest tweak implemented (or maybe it's just that the MacPorts folks can't admin their way out of a paper bag, I've seen other symptoms to suggest that's the case, so don't take this as entirely negative on Trac -- not to mention that lots of people love it).
I've briefly mentioned integrating some Roundup functions with the mailman interface to Barry but that hasn't gone anywhere yet.
I have mentioned previously that if something needs root access, or familiarity with Linux, then it is of little use to me.
Regards, John.
On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 18:49:44 +1100, John Fitzsimons wrote:
Hi,
Are there currently *any* web forum(s) that enable forum/mailman mirroring ? In other words a Mailman email going to a web forum and vica versa ?
< snip >
Since my post I have come across...
http://www.phorum.org/phorum5/read.php?62,140380
it says....
"this allows for two way integration with mailinglists. "
The comments..."shell / cronjob access" and "raw shell access" suggest that it wouldn't work for me on a hosted site. :-(
Regards, John.
On Dec 21, 2009, at 1:49 AM, John Fitzsimons wrote:
Are there currently *any* web forum(s) that enable forum/mailman mirroring ? In other words a Mailman email going to a web forum and vica versa ?
Search the FAQ wizard for "web forum". You should find a link to an article that talks about Joomla. That's the best integration I know of, although I'm sure there are others.
I believe that something like this could work with phpbb2 but not the current release. Can anyone help please ?
I'm not personally aware of anything, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
-- Brad Knowles <bradknowles@shub-internet.org> LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>
On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:56:19 -0600, Brad Knowles wrote:
On Dec 21, 2009, at 1:49 AM, John Fitzsimons wrote:
Are there currently *any* web forum(s) that enable forum/mailman mirroring ? In other words a Mailman email going to a web forum and vica versa ?
Search the FAQ wizard for "web forum". You should find a link to an article that talks about Joomla.
< snip >
Okay, thanks. It appears that Joomla, and PHPBB, both need a database eg. MySQL. I don't suppose you know whether they could both reference the same database when setting things up for the above outcome ?
Thank you for your help.
Regards, John.
On Fri, Dec 25, 2009 at 11:43:29AM +1100, John Fitzsimons wrote:
Okay, thanks. It appears that Joomla, and PHPBB, both need a database eg. MySQL. I don't suppose you know whether they could both reference the same database when setting things up for the above outcome ?
Joomla doesn't have native forums, from last time I looked. Joomla is 'just' a CMS.
http://www.kunena.com/ is apparently "Next Generation Native Joomla Forum"; it's that wh(at|ich) is installed on a box I sysadmin for, but didn't set-up.
I've got a vague knowledge of phpBB2, but I've not kept upto date.
However, with those caveats, one should be able to use the same *database*, and Joomla/Kunena/Drupal/phpBB2 could all co-exist, in the same database, just using different database table prefixes, e.g.,
resulting in something like db_foo.joomla_blah db_foo.joomla_users db_foo.kunena_forum db_foo.kunena_users db_foo.drupal_nodes db_foo.drupal_users db_foo.phpbb_users db_foo.phpbb_topics
There's an option to specify prefixes at install/configuration time.
I'd not advise having that sort of structure, it's just going to get messy/putting all of one's eggs in the same basket, but it could be considered an option.
-- ``The government wants to bring an end to so-called vertical drinking.'' (from the BBC's `Today in Parliament')
Adam McGreggor writes:
However, with those caveats, one should be able to use the same *database*, and Joomla/Kunena/Drupal/phpBB2 could all co-exist, in the same database, just using different database table prefixes, e.g.,
I rather doubt that's what John wants. I am guessing he wants *one* user database, *one* message database/archive, etc, etc, which presents various different faces to users depending one whether they access via mail, news, or forum.
That's why Barry is focusing on various kind of adaptors, so that different functions can share certain databases.
On Fri, Dec 25, 2009 at 11:26:01AM +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
Adam McGreggor writes:
However, with those caveats, one should be able to use the same *database*, and Joomla/Kunena/Drupal/phpBB2 could all co-exist, in the same database, just using different database table prefixes, e.g.,
I rather doubt that's what John wants. I am guessing he wants *one* user database, *one* message database/archive, etc, etc
LDAP FTW :)
-- ``[These atrocities] -- they all happened, and they did not happen any the less because the Daily Telegraph has suddenly found out about them when it is five years too late.'' (George Orwell, Looking Back on the Spanish War, 1942)
Adam McGreggor writes:
On Fri, Dec 25, 2009 at 11:26:01AM +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
Adam McGreggor writes:
However, with those caveats, one should be able to use the same *database*, and Joomla/Kunena/Drupal/phpBB2 could all co-exist, in the same database, just using different database table prefixes, e.g.,
I rather doubt that's what John wants. I am guessing he wants *one* user database, *one* message database/archive, etc, etc
LDAP FTW :)
LDAP makes great sense for an existing organization that wants to easily supply data about its members to the Mailman installation, but AFAIK the existing implementations would not be a good choice for a general backend, certainly not for the message archive, and probably not for the user database, either.
On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 11:26:01 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
Adam McGreggor writes:
However, with those caveats, one should be able to use the same *database*, and Joomla/Kunena/Drupal/phpBB2 could all co-exist, in the same database, just using different database table prefixes, e.g.,
I rather doubt that's what John wants. I am guessing he wants *one* user database,
You guess correctly. This is because my web hoster limits the number of MySQL databases that one can have. From looking elsewhere that doesn't appear uncommon with Australian hosters.
*one* message database/archive, etc, etc, which presents various different faces to users depending one whether they access via mail, news, or forum.
Exactly correct.
That's why Barry is focusing on various kind of adaptors, so that different functions can share certain databases.
Which will be a huge help IMO. :-)
Regards, John.
On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 23:56:19 -0600, Brad Knowles wrote:
On Dec 21, 2009, at 1:49 AM, John Fitzsimons wrote:
Hi Brad,
Are there currently *any* web forum(s) that enable forum/mailman mirroring ? In other words a Mailman email going to a web forum and vica versa ?
Search the FAQ wizard for "web forum". You should find a link to an article that talks about Joomla. That's the best integration I know of, although I'm sure there are others.
Found it. Thanks. Backupcentral suggests that their bridge works BUT I don't know whether it will work with Mailman 2.1.11 PLUS Joomla 1.5 PLUS phpBB3.
My hosting server only allows me three databases so I don't want to install Joomla, and phpBB3, (using maybe two databases) and then find out that everything will not work together.
They have a mailing list called "testy" for it but when I asked a few questions I got a partial answer from only one person. There are a number of unanswered questions I still have.
These are really VERY basic questions. For example, what files go in what directories ? Does it matter how deep the directories are etc. ? Does one need shell access ?
They say...
"1. Install the component via standard install procedures."
What are "standard install procedures" ? For windows users that is simply double clicking an .exe file. What does that mean when translated to unix ? If it is as simple as FTPing files then why not say so ? Then tell people where they need to go.
They then say "Point your admin browser to Components..." What's an admin browser ? Is that any different than a web browser ? Or are they talking about a telnet connection ?
It is interesting how that site talks about an email to web forum bridge but they discuss it in a mailing list only. If the bridge works then I appear to have missed where the testy web forum address is.
Also, why Joomla ? Previous software bridges that I have investigated have been from Mailman to phpBB2. No mention of Joomla being needed.
So why the above comments ? So that people on this list, who aren't unix experts, can think twice before they try to install a product that probably doesn't work with current installations and has almost zero support.
I believe that something like this could work with phpbb2 but not the current release. Can anyone help please ?
I'm not personally aware of anything, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
I am still looking. :-(
A pity, as it would have hugely increased the popularity of Mailman had it worked. There are many web forums around. Adding an email list to them would make them/Mailman far more popular.
Regards, John.
On Mon, 4 Jan 2010, John Fitzsimons wrote:
They say...
"1. Install the component via standard install procedures."
What are "standard install procedures" ? For windows users that is simply double clicking an .exe file. What does that mean when translated to unix ? If it is as simple as FTPing files then why not say so ? Then tell people where they need to go.
I expect that in this case, "standard install procedures" means standard install procedures for Joomla. Depending on how they handle this sort of thing, it may or may not require shell access. I'm guessing not, as some hosted sites wouldn't provide such access, but I don't know for sure.
They then say "Point your admin browser to Components..." What's an admin browser ? Is that any different than a web browser ? Or are they talking about a telnet connection ?
I'm guessing they're saying "Log in as admin and go to Components".
It is interesting how that site talks about an email to web forum bridge but they discuss it in a mailing list only. If the bridge works then I appear to have missed where the testy web forum address is.
Presumably the forum is the same as the mailing list.
Geoff.
On Mon, Jan 04, 2010 at 11:15:15AM +0200, Geoff Shang wrote:
On Mon, 4 Jan 2010, John Fitzsimons wrote:
It is interesting how that site talks about an email to web forum bridge but they discuss it in a mailing list only. If the bridge works then I appear to have missed where the testy web forum address is.
Presumably the forum is the same as the mailing list.
<http://docs.joomla.org/Internet_Relay_Chat_(IRC)> states that there's an IRC channel. That may be useful for joomla queries.
-- ``My years of hip-hop sessions came in handy as I could converse well with Fast Fingers. I knew the lingo and when to use it, and as far as he was concerned, I was one of the brothers. Strangely, neither of us was one of the brothers, but I figure that's just a technicality.'' (`MixerMan')
participants (11)
-
Adam McGreggor -
Barry Warsaw -
Brad Knowles -
Geoff Shang -
John Fitzsimons -
Mark J Bradakis -
Mark Sapiro -
Richard Damon -
Stephen J. Turnbull -
Tanstaafl -
Terri Oda