change links in mail footer to https
Hi, all the links in mails generated by mailman start with http, even though DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN starts with https. How can I change this?
Thanks a lot in advance for any advice,
Johannes
On 12/09/2017 02:23 AM, Johannes Rohr wrote:
Hi, all the links in mails generated by mailman start with http, even though DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN starts with https. How can I change this?
See <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030616>.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
That's all well and good Mark, but surely you know that any fix that involves issuing a shell command is useless for those of us responsible for lists on a shared server running cPanel (or equivalent).
Is there a procedure that we can implement, or are we just SOL?
Has anyone had any success forwarding the procedure to your host's tech support?
-Chip-
On 12/9/2017 1:02 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
On 12/09/2017 02:23 AM, Johannes Rohr wrote:
Hi, all the links in mails generated by mailman start with http, even though DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN starts with https. How can I change this?
On 12/09/2017 10:40 AM, Chip Davis wrote:
That's all well and good Mark, but surely you know that any fix that involves issuing a shell command is useless for those of us responsible for lists on a shared server running cPanel (or equivalent).
The OP indicated that he had changed DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN. If he can do that, he can run fix_url.
Is there a procedure that we can implement, or are we just SOL?
I know nothing about setting a cPanel domain to use https, but I imaging more that just the Mailman part of this requires action by a server admin.
The real underlying issue with cPanel is the fact that Mailman just "comes in the box" with cPanel. There are some hosting services using cPanel who are very conscientious and cooperative in supporting their customers use of Mailman, but unfortunately, there are others who only offer Mailman because it "comes in the box" and are unwilling to put any effort into supporting it.
If your host won't cooperate, see <https://wiki.list.org/COM/Mailman%20hosting%20services> for possible replacements.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
Thanks, Mark.
I'll sent that URL to Tech Support and ask them to fix my servers. Depending on how they respond, I may contact one of the vendors on that list.
With so many lists running on cPanel, I was hoping that someone had already figured out a way to do it (or get it done).
-Chip-
On 12/9/2017 2:06 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
On 12/09/2017 10:40 AM, Chip Davis wrote:
That's all well and good Mark, but surely you know that any fix that involves issuing a shell command is useless for those of us responsible for lists on a shared server running cPanel (or equivalent).
The OP indicated that he had changed DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN. If he can do that, he can run fix_url.
Is there a procedure that we can implement, or are we just SOL?
I know nothing about setting a cPanel domain to use https, but I imaging more that just the Mailman part of this requires action by a server admin.
The real underlying issue with cPanel is the fact that Mailman just "comes in the box" with cPanel. There are some hosting services using cPanel who are very conscientious and cooperative in supporting their customers use of Mailman, but unfortunately, there are others who only offer Mailman because it "comes in the box" and are unwilling to put any effort into supporting it.
If your host won't cooperate, see <https://wiki.list.org/COM/Mailman%20hosting%20services> for possible replacements.
Am 09.12.2017 um 20:06 schrieb Mark Sapiro:
On 12/09/2017 10:40 AM, Chip Davis wrote:
That's all well and good Mark, but surely you know that any fix that involves issuing a shell command is useless for those of us responsible for lists on a shared server running cPanel (or equivalent).
The OP indicated that he had changed DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN. If he can do that, he can run fix_url.
I have found the reason. There was an error with the config file and there were two entries for DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN, the first starting with https and the second which I had not noticed with http. I deleted the second and now running fix_url dig the trick.
Thanks,
Johannes
On 09-Dec-17 14:06, Mark Sapiro wrote:
On 12/09/2017 10:40 AM, Chip Davis wrote:
That's all well and good Mark, but surely you know that any fix that involves issuing a shell command is useless for those of us responsible for lists on a shared server running cPanel (or equivalent).
The OP indicated that he had changed DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN. If he can do that, he can run fix_url.
That is not necessarily true.
On a cPanel-managed website that I support, the "File manager" provides an editor, which allows any text file to be edited. And you can set 'x' permission. But there is no shell access, and no straightforward way to execute a file. (If you're clever and sufficiently motivated, you can setup a temporary cron job or modify some source file.)
I've had similar issues with people using wiki software; in that case, the solution was to add a carefully-protected admin option to allow a very privileged admin to run a shell command (e.g. system(...)). As a developer, I was not enthusiastic - but it seems that a significant number of people are stuck with hosts that don't provide shell access. Of course, my first reaction was "change hosting provider" - but there were many "I can't" - though the reasons varied.
You might consider adding a super-user menu to allow users to run withlist; fix_url; etc without shell access. Or an admin privilege that can be granted to selected list managers. If not for MM2, for MM3.
If you don't want to support mailman in environments without shell access, at a minimum, put a big warning in the install docs that "administration and maintenance of a mailman site requires shell access". It shouldn't be a requirement that's discovered later.
I'm inclined to agree with tlhackque. I'd venture a guess that a large percentage (perhaps even a majority) of Mailman users are provided with Mailman from their hosting company as the only mailing list tool available. The Mailman UI allows them to do the initial configuration and management but they're not, in most cases, even aware of python or shell script execution. It's completely foreign to them and most likely completely beyond their skill sets. They then come to this list for help and get told something in a language they don't understand and as this thread reveals, many hosting companies are completely uncooperative with respect to python and shell execution.
Of course, having monitored this list for several years, I'm totally impressed with the skill and knowledge of Mark Sapiro and others, and I do understand that Mailman is an open-source program for which (to the best of my knowledge) nobody gets paid to maintain. But it would certainly be nice is the Mailman UI could be improved to allow users to accomplish many of the things they seek help for here without having to spend weeks learning how to do python programming or shell script execution.
Best Regards,
Mike
Mike Starr, Writer Technical Writer - Online Help Developer - WordPress Websites Graphic Designer - Desktop Publisher - Custom Microsoft Word templates (262) 694-1028 - mike@writestarr.com - http://www.writestarr.com
On 12/10/2017 11:42 AM, tlhackque via Mailman-Users wrote:
On 09-Dec-17 14:06, Mark Sapiro wrote:
That's all well and good Mark, but surely you know that any fix that involves issuing a shell command is useless for those of us responsible for lists on a shared server running cPanel (or equivalent). The OP indicated that he had changed DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN. If he can do
On 12/09/2017 10:40 AM, Chip Davis wrote: that, he can run fix_url. That is not necessarily true.
On a cPanel-managed website that I support, the "File manager" provides an editor, which allows any text file to be edited. And you can set 'x' permission. But there is no shell access, and no straightforward way to execute a file. (If you're clever and sufficiently motivated, you can setup a temporary cron job or modify some source file.)
I've had similar issues with people using wiki software; in that case, the solution was to add a carefully-protected admin option to allow a very privileged admin to run a shell command (e.g. system(...)). As a developer, I was not enthusiastic - but it seems that a significant number of people are stuck with hosts that don't provide shell access. Of course, my first reaction was "change hosting provider" - but there were many "I can't" - though the reasons varied.
You might consider adding a super-user menu to allow users to run withlist; fix_url; etc without shell access. Or an admin privilege that can be granted to selected list managers. If not for MM2, for MM3.
If you don't want to support mailman in environments without shell access, at a minimum, put a big warning in the install docs that "administration and maintenance of a mailman site requires shell access". It shouldn't be a requirement that's discovered later.
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/mike%40writestarr.com
-----Original Message----- From: Mailman-Users [mailto:mailman-users- bounces+brian=emwd.com@python.org] On Behalf Of Mike Starr Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2017 1:18 PM To: mailman-users@python.org Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] change links in mail footer to https
I'm inclined to agree with tlhackque. I'd venture a guess that a large percentage (perhaps even a majority) of Mailman users are provided with Mailman from their hosting company as the only mailing list tool available. The Mailman UI allows them to do the initial configuration and management but they're not, in most cases, even aware of python or shell script execution. It's completely foreign to them and most likely completely beyond their skill sets. They then come to this list for help and get told something in a language they don't understand and as this thread reveals, many hosting companies are completely uncooperative with respect to python and shell execution.
Of course, having monitored this list for several years, I'm totally impressed with the skill and knowledge of Mark Sapiro and others, and I do understand that Mailman is an open-source program for which (to the best of my knowledge) nobody gets paid to maintain. But it would certainly be nice is the Mailman UI could be improved to allow users to accomplish many of the things they seek help for here without having to spend weeks learning how to do python programming or shell script execution.
Best Regards,
Mike
Mike Starr, Writer Technical Writer - Online Help Developer - WordPress Websites Graphic Designer - Desktop Publisher - Custom Microsoft Word templates (262) 694-1028 - mike@writestarr.com - http://www.writestarr.com
On 12/10/2017 11:42 AM, tlhackque via Mailman-Users wrote:
On 09-Dec-17 14:06, Mark Sapiro wrote:
That's all well and good Mark, but surely you know that any fix that involves issuing a shell command is useless for those of us responsible for lists on a shared server running cPanel (or equivalent). The OP indicated that he had changed DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN. If he can do
On 12/09/2017 10:40 AM, Chip Davis wrote: that, he can run fix_url. That is not necessarily true.
On a cPanel-managed website that I support, the "File manager" provides an editor, which allows any text file to be edited. And you can set 'x' permission. But there is no shell access, and no straightforward way to execute a file. (If you're clever and sufficiently motivated, you can setup a temporary cron job or modify some source file.)
I've had similar issues with people using wiki software; in that case, the solution was to add a carefully-protected admin option to allow a very privileged admin to run a shell command (e.g. system(...)). As a developer, I was not enthusiastic - but it seems that a significant number of people are stuck with hosts that don't provide shell access. Of course, my first reaction was "change hosting provider" - but there were many "I can't" - though the reasons varied.
You might consider adding a super-user menu to allow users to run withlist; fix_url; etc without shell access. Or an admin privilege that can be granted to selected list managers. If not for MM2, for MM3.
If you don't want to support mailman in environments without shell access, at a minimum, put a big warning in the install docs that "administration and maintenance of a mailman site requires shell access". It shouldn't be a requirement that's discovered later.
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman- users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman- users/mike%40writestarr.com
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman- users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman- users/brian%40emwd.com
Well let's not give all hosting providers a black eye. We run all kinds of admin tasks on behalf of our mailman clients. As for using SSL, it is time consuming moving a large number of lists on various domains to use SSL. We run our mailman lists on cPanel servers with the default http setup. Since there is a growing demand for SSL connections we are moving our clients to use SSL. We already offer free SSL certificates so this move fits quite well with that.
The problem with shell access and mailman, is that mailman server changes requires root access and what ever changes are made to the mailman server itself impacts all mailing lists. So those of you who use mailman on a shared hosting environment should never be given shell access to mailman.
I do not agree that mailman users need or require shell access. What is being asked here in regards to SSL is at this moment a preference not a need. Perhaps the developers of the MM 2.1 branch can add some additional functionality to the mailman list admin interface to turn on or off SSL connections. I know you can do this with WordPress quite easily. Another path is make a feature request with cPanel, Inc. to add some sort of function to add SSL functionality to Mailman lists.
Brian Carpenter Owner
Providing Cloud and Mailman Services and more for over 15 years.
E: brian@emwd.com www.emwd.com
On 12/10/2017 10:17 AM, Mike Starr wrote:
Of course, having monitored this list for several years, I'm totally impressed with the skill and knowledge of Mark Sapiro and others, and I do understand that Mailman is an open-source program for which (to the best of my knowledge) nobody gets paid to maintain.
Thank you.
And you are correct that no one is paid to maintain Mailman (in the interest of full disclosure, that may change in a small way for a short time for one Mailman 3 developer). Also, for the last several years, I am the only one doing maintenance on Mailman 2.1. I have had a few contributions from the community which I greatly appreciate, but I am it, and I too would rather spend all my time on Mailman 3, but I'm still not (quite) ready to throw Mailman 2.1 support under the bus. There are still too many users.
But it would certainly be nice is the Mailman UI could be improved to allow users to accomplish many of the things they seek help for here without having to spend weeks learning how to do python programming or shell script execution.
If this had been a well thought out feature request even 5 years ago, I might have done it, and even now, a complete merge proposal might be accepted, but at this point, I'm not interested in doing this from scratch. See below for more.
On 12/10/2017 12:19 PM, Brian Carpenter wrote:
Well let's not give all hosting providers a black eye. We run all kinds of admin tasks on behalf of our mailman clients. As for using SSL, it is time consuming moving a large number of lists on various domains to use SSL. We run our mailman lists on cPanel servers with the default http setup. Since there is a growing demand for SSL connections we are moving our clients to use SSL. We already offer free SSL certificates so this move fits quite well with that.
And Brian's is definitely one of the "very conscientious and cooperative" cPanel Mailman hosting services I had in mind in my post at <https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2017-December/082803.html>.
The problem with shell access and mailman, is that mailman server changes requires root access and what ever changes are made to the mailman server itself impacts all mailing lists. So those of you who use mailman on a shared hosting environment should never be given shell access to mailman.
And this is a real problem and one that I think should be addressed by cPanel, not me.
The Mailman developers see Mailman as software that requires server admin access to install and configure. cPanel changes that at some level so they should go all the way and give the end user the ability through the control panel to make the changes in a way that doesn't affect other users on a shared host. I had a conversation several years ago at PyCon about access to Mailman's logs in some way that could allow a cPanel domain admin to access only log info for their domain, but that didn't get anywhere.
The Mailman development team has also had contact with cPanel, and cPanel is interested in Mailman remaining viable and in offering Mailman 3, and they do support us by providing the server that supports our CI environment in GitLab where we develop Mailman 3, and we are very appreciative of that. They are, however, only able to provide money or hardware resources, not actual development.
Note that with this specific issue, I could expose a list's web_page_url in the web admin UI, but that wouldn't solve the problem. As Brian indicates, making Mailman use https involve more than that. It also requires certificates and web server configuration, and while I don't know, I suspect these things require a server admin, even on cPanel.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
On 10-Dec-17 19:24, Mark Sapiro wrote:
Note that with this specific issue, I could expose a list's web_page_url in the web admin UI, but that wouldn't solve the problem. As Brian indicates, making Mailman use https involve more than that. It also requires certificates and web server configuration, and while I don't know, I suspect these things require a server admin, even on cPanel.
I'm not going to claim cPanel expertise - but in my experience a cPanel admin can allow server admins access to SSL/TLS configuration. Once I had that enabled, I was able to just paste certificates/keys into the cPanel UI, and apache is reconfigured behind the scenes. It's pretty good about decoding the certificate and telling you what it covers and when it's valid. I have heard that there's a let'sEncrypt module for cPanel (my provider doesn't have it yet).
So the missing piece for allowing a MM admin to convert to (or from) https is 'just' the web admin UI - and some documentation. (Note: I don't run Mailman under cPanel, so I don't know what else there may be.)
Of course MM is mostly a volunteer effort, and MM2.1 is on the back burner. Didn't mean to imply otherwise.
As I noted, whether or not the web admin UI is improved for 2.1, it should be done for 3.
And the doc should clearly indicate that shell access is (currently) a requirement post-install. Apparently, cPanel does some packaging/wrapping of Mailman - which I can't speak to. But there should be no need for root access for a private Mailman instance running from a user directory. Mailman does not run under root. If you choose to run mailing lists for multiple administrative domains under a single instance, you would need access to the instance's mailman user. And that could be undesirable and/or complicated.
Off the top of my head, the only system file access required for MM2.1 is to /etc/aliases -- presumably, the cPanel wrapper takes care of updating it (and running newaliases) as lists are created/destroyed. As I said, the best solution is to provide all the MM admin functions from the web admin UI. (There are quite a few in mailman/bin.) Not just for this, but because as time passes, fewer mailing list admins are comfortable at the command line.
Speaking of WordPress - I do run it in a cPanel -managed host. WP is a completely private install. My VirtualHost has a complete copy of WordPress in my_username/public_html - nothing is stored in a system directory. And no root access is required. From a hosting provider's point of view, this isn't as efficient as a shared install. But they can charge for the disk space and network/computes used to update each instance, so it works out. I don't see why Mailman couldn't be packaged the same way. TLS is configured by editing the WP config file for each instance (using the cPanel editor that I mentioned). And certificates are installed for the VirtualHost using cPanel->Security->SSL/TLS. (There are also plugins for getting certificates from various CAs.)
Finally, I never said "all shared hosting providers are bad". I said "many don't provide shell access", and that Mailman currently requires it for a number of post-install admin operations. It would be good if those requirements could be reduced. If someone has the need/inclination/energy.
But this has gone rather far afield. I don't have this particular problem, so I'm going to leave this here. I hope these notes help those who do.
participants (6)
-
Brian Carpenter -
Chip Davis -
Johannes Rohr -
Mark Sapiro -
Mike Starr -
tlhackque