At 11:45 AM -0700 2004-09-25, Chuq Von Rospach wrote:

Um, Apple has supported Mailman for years. They pay my salary, and have fully supported me in putting my time and energy into this project.

The problem is that there are different groups within Apple. 

There's the group you're a part of, and which has been a strong supporter of Mailman for a long time. Then there's the group that is responsible for developing and supporting MacOS X Server (a separate product from the regular MacOS X "Client").

Unfortunately, the latter group is well-known to effectively 

ignore support requests, even from customers paying thousands upon thousands of dollars per year in support contracts. Their answer for many problems is to wipe and re-install, even if the real problem is a simple mis-configuration that can be corrected through the custom GUI that they have developed -- and if you won't or can't afford to apply their Universal Solution for All Problems, then they simply disconnect you and refuse to provide any further support.

Moreover, it is this latter group which has taken the Mailman 

code and developed their own custom management GUI, and who refuse to provide any feedback to the Mailman project as to what they've done or how any of their bits interface with ours.

Since they refuse to provide any real support for MacOS X Server 

with respect to Mailman, and they don't provide us the information we would need so that we could provide that support, we are left in an untenable situation.

The Mailman project is not the only group to be put in such a bad 

situation by the MacOS X Server development/support team. I've heard these complaints from other projects, too.

Now, if you could use your position there to help break this 

logjam, that would be great. However, given what I've heard from other Apple employees about their previous encounters with regards to this situation and their own inability to get support from the MacOS X Server development/support team, I doubt that is likely to be successful.

Unfortunately, this puts you in an even worse position.

-- Brad Knowles, brad@stop.mail-abuse.org

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

 -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
 Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

SAGE member since 1995. See http://www.sage.org/ for more info.

Chuq, there seems to be a disconnect somewhere.

Possibly the Mac OS X server users with paid support are asking confusing questions. Possibly the people responding to calls don't understand that Mailman is shipped (modified) as part of Mac OS X Server.

But too many people--claiming to have paid OS X Server support--have shown up here claiming to have been told "We don't support Mailman" for me to believe there isn't something wrong.

--John

On 9/25/2004 14:41, "Chuq Von Rospach" chuqui@plaidworks.com wrote:

um, I happen to know those folks pretty well. They're as responsive as they can be, given they have the same kind of restrictions we all do (even here in Mailman-land): can't do everything for everyone, because there isn't enough resource, and not everything ought to be done.

won't speak for them, but I will defend them on this. They care as much about their stuff as Brad does about his...

On Sep 25, 2004, at 12:59 PM, Brad Knowles wrote:

...

Then there's the group that is responsible for developing and supporting MacOS X Server (a separate product from the regular MacOS X "Client").

Unfortunately, the latter group is well-known to effectively ignore support requests, even from customers paying thousands upon thousands of dollars per year in support contracts.