Messages delivered out of order and delayed
I run an active discussion group. Messages come and go from people all hours of the day.
For the past few months, we've noticed that messages are arriving out of order, and sometimes are delayed by hours or even a day!
The kicker is that the delivery issues are not the same for everyone. Some people will get a particular message immediately, while others will get that message in an hour, and others in a day.
Most of our users use gmail.
What can we do to fix this? As ours is a discussion group, timing is pretty important so that the flow of the conversation isn't interrupted by people not having read previous messages.
Thank you!
Veronica Morris PhD and Hestia SD (Japanese Chin) Partnered with a psychiatric service dog since 2005 President of Psychiatric Service Dog Partners veronica@psych.dog https://www.psychdogpartners.org http://www.doctorv.xyz https://www.youtube.com/+VeronicaMorris https://www.facebook.com/DrVeronicaMorris
On 9/13/2019 6:59 AM, Veronica Morris wrote:
For the past few months, we've noticed that messages are arriving out of order, and sometimes are delayed by hours or even a day!
Please remember that email is not a "real time" communication system; might look like it sometimes, but it's always "store and forward".
The kicker is that the delivery issues are not the same for everyone. Some people will get a particular message immediately, while others will get that message in an hour, and others in a day.
For email, this is not abnormal. Mailman will generally "send" all of the messages at once, but once they're handed off to the server, they're out of mailman's control. That server and succeeding ones can have any number of delays occur (name resolution, receiving server is busy, held for spam checks, etc). Also, once the sending server gets the email to any large provider (i.e.gmail or yahoo), -they- may not process that immediately.
In short, there isn't much you can do about this. If mailman is personalizing messages, that can cause them to be sent individually instead of being batched, but in most cases you need that personalization anyway for things like DMARC mitigation.
Later,
z!
Hi Veronica,
What hosting service/platform are you using for your discussion list? Are you noticing delays with the same ISPs or does it vary by ISP? I would reach out to your hosting provider and then let know of 3 list members that are experiencing consistent delays and they should be able to review their mail log. If you are on cPanel then you can use the track delivery tool to see what is happening with those list members that are experiencing the longest delays.
Have a great day!
Brian Carpenter EMWD.com brian@emwd.com
-----Original Message----- From: Mailman-Users mailman-users-bounces+brian=emwd.com@python.org On Behalf Of Veronica Morris Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 10:00 AM To: mailman-users@python.org Subject: [Mailman-Users] Messages delivered out of order and delayed
I run an active discussion group. Messages come and go from people all hours of the day.
For the past few months, we've noticed that messages are arriving out of order, and sometimes are delayed by hours or even a day!
The kicker is that the delivery issues are not the same for everyone. Some people will get a particular message immediately, while others will get that message in an hour, and others in a day.
Most of our users use gmail.
What can we do to fix this? As ours is a discussion group, timing is pretty important so that the flow of the conversation isn't interrupted by people not having read previous messages.
Thank you!
Veronica Morris PhD and Hestia SD (Japanese Chin) Partnered with a psychiatric service dog since 2005 President of Psychiatric Service Dog Partners veronica@psych.dog https://www.psychdogpartners.org http://www.doctorv.xyz https://www.youtube.com/+VeronicaMorris https://www.facebook.com/DrVeronicaMorris
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/brian%40emwd.com
I am using dreamhost.
Almost all of the people on the listserv use gmail. I have asked if people with other email addresses experience the same problem, but no one has replied.
Is that what you mean by ISP?
Sorry I am very new to this type of thing! I have no experience with computers!
I will contact Dreamhost, that is an excellent idea!
Veronica Morris PhD and Hestia SD (Japanese Chin) Partnered with a psychiatric service dog since 2005 President of Psychiatric Service Dog Partners veronica@psych.dog https://www.psychdogpartners.org http://www.doctorv.xyz https://www.youtube.com/+VeronicaMorris https://www.facebook.com/DrVeronicaMorris
On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 12:30 PM Brian Carpenter brian@emwd.com wrote:
Hi Veronica,
What hosting service/platform are you using for your discussion list? Are you noticing delays with the same ISPs or does it vary by ISP? I would reach out to your hosting provider and then let know of 3 list members that are experiencing consistent delays and they should be able to review their mail log. If you are on cPanel then you can use the track delivery tool to see what is happening with those list members that are experiencing the longest delays.
Have a great day!
Brian Carpenter EMWD.com brian@emwd.com
-----Original Message----- From: Mailman-Users mailman-users-bounces+brian=emwd.com@python.org On Behalf Of Veronica Morris Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 10:00 AM To: mailman-users@python.org Subject: [Mailman-Users] Messages delivered out of order and delayed
I run an active discussion group. Messages come and go from people all hours of the day.
For the past few months, we've noticed that messages are arriving out of order, and sometimes are delayed by hours or even a day!
The kicker is that the delivery issues are not the same for everyone. Some people will get a particular message immediately, while others will get that message in an hour, and others in a day.
Most of our users use gmail.
What can we do to fix this? As ours is a discussion group, timing is pretty important so that the flow of the conversation isn't interrupted by people not having read previous messages.
Thank you!
Veronica Morris PhD and Hestia SD (Japanese Chin) Partnered with a psychiatric service dog since 2005 President of Psychiatric Service Dog Partners veronica@psych.dog https://www.psychdogpartners.org http://www.doctorv.xyz https://www.youtube.com/+VeronicaMorris https://www.facebook.com/DrVeronicaMorris
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/brian%40emwd.com
You should be seeing almost instaneous deliveries with Gmail. The mail logs will show what’s going on. I know Dreamhost doesn’t use cPanel but I am not sure what mail server they us. I know Exim has some settings that can interfere with the timely deliveries of messages.
Have a great day!
Brian Carpenter
EMWD.com
brian@emwd.com
From: Veronica Morris veronica.m.psdp@gmail.com Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 12:35 PM To: Brian Carpenter brian@emwd.com Cc: mailman-users@python.org Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Messages delivered out of order and delayed
I am using dreamhost.
Almost all of the people on the listserv use gmail. I have asked if people with other email addresses experience the same problem, but no one has replied.
Is that what you mean by ISP?
Sorry I am very new to this type of thing! I have no experience with computers!
I will contact Dreamhost, that is an excellent idea!
Veronica Morris PhD and Hestia SD (Japanese Chin)
Partnered with a psychiatric service dog since 2005
President of Psychiatric Service Dog Partnersveronica@psych.dog mailto:veronica@psych.dog
https://www.psychdogpartners.org
http://www.doctorv.xyz https://www.youtube.com/+VeronicaMorris
https://www.facebook.com/DrVeronicaMorris
On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 12:30 PM Brian Carpenter
Hi Veronica,
What hosting service/platform are you using for your discussion list? Are you noticing delays with the same ISPs or does it vary by ISP? I would reach out to your hosting provider and then let know of 3 list members that are experiencing consistent delays and they should be able to review their mail log. If you are on cPanel then you can use the track delivery tool to see what is happening with those list members that are experiencing the longest delays.
Have a great day!
Brian Carpenter EMWD.com brian@emwd.com mailto:brian@emwd.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Mailman-Users
I run an active discussion group. Messages come and go from people all hours of the day.
For the past few months, we've noticed that messages are arriving out of order, and sometimes are delayed by hours or even a day!
The kicker is that the delivery issues are not the same for everyone. Some people will get a particular message immediately, while others will get that message in an hour, and others in a day.
Most of our users use gmail.
What can we do to fix this? As ours is a discussion group, timing is pretty important so that the flow of the conversation isn't interrupted by people not having read previous messages.
Thank you!
Veronica Morris PhD and Hestia SD (Japanese Chin) Partnered with a psychiatric service dog since 2005 President of Psychiatric Service Dog Partners veronica@psych.dog mailto:veronica@psych.dog https://www.psychdogpartners.org http://www.doctorv.xyz https://www.youtube.com/+VeronicaMorris https://www.facebook.com/DrVeronicaMorris
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org mailto:Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/brian%40emwd.com
How do I see mail logs?
Sorry to be so dense!
Veronica Morris PhD and Hestia SD (Japanese Chin) Partnered with a psychiatric service dog since 2005 President of Psychiatric Service Dog Partners veronica@psych.dog https://www.psychdogpartners.org http://www.doctorv.xyz https://www.youtube.com/+VeronicaMorris https://www.facebook.com/DrVeronicaMorris
On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 12:39 PM Brian Carpenter brian@emwd.com wrote:
You should be seeing almost instaneous deliveries with Gmail. The mail logs will show what’s going on. I know Dreamhost doesn’t use cPanel but I am not sure what mail server they us. I know Exim has some settings that can interfere with the timely deliveries of messages.
Have a great day!
Brian Carpenter
EMWD.com
brian@emwd.com
*From:* Veronica Morris veronica.m.psdp@gmail.com *Sent:* Friday, September 13, 2019 12:35 PM *To:* Brian Carpenter brian@emwd.com *Cc:* mailman-users@python.org *Subject:* Re: [Mailman-Users] Messages delivered out of order and delayed
I am using dreamhost.
Almost all of the people on the listserv use gmail. I have asked if people with other email addresses experience the same problem, but no one has replied.
Is that what you mean by ISP?
Sorry I am very new to this type of thing! I have no experience with computers!
I will contact Dreamhost, that is an excellent idea!
Veronica Morris PhD and Hestia SD (Japanese Chin)
Partnered with a psychiatric service dog since 2005 President of Psychiatric Service Dog Partnersveronica@psych.dog
https://www.psychdogpartners.org
http://www.doctorv.xyz https://www.youtube.com/+VeronicaMorris
https://www.facebook.com/DrVeronicaMorris
On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 12:30 PM Brian Carpenter brian@emwd.com wrote:
Hi Veronica,
What hosting service/platform are you using for your discussion list? Are you noticing delays with the same ISPs or does it vary by ISP? I would reach out to your hosting provider and then let know of 3 list members that are experiencing consistent delays and they should be able to review their mail log. If you are on cPanel then you can use the track delivery tool to see what is happening with those list members that are experiencing the longest delays.
Have a great day!
Brian Carpenter EMWD.com brian@emwd.com
-----Original Message----- From: Mailman-Users mailman-users-bounces+brian=emwd.com@python.org On Behalf Of Veronica Morris Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 10:00 AM To: mailman-users@python.org Subject: [Mailman-Users] Messages delivered out of order and delayed
I run an active discussion group. Messages come and go from people all hours of the day.
For the past few months, we've noticed that messages are arriving out of order, and sometimes are delayed by hours or even a day!
The kicker is that the delivery issues are not the same for everyone. Some people will get a particular message immediately, while others will get that message in an hour, and others in a day.
Most of our users use gmail.
What can we do to fix this? As ours is a discussion group, timing is pretty important so that the flow of the conversation isn't interrupted by people not having read previous messages.
Thank you!
Veronica Morris PhD and Hestia SD (Japanese Chin) Partnered with a psychiatric service dog since 2005 President of Psychiatric Service Dog Partners veronica@psych.dog https://www.psychdogpartners.org http://www.doctorv.xyz https://www.youtube.com/+VeronicaMorris https://www.facebook.com/DrVeronicaMorris
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/brian%40emwd.com
Only your hosting provider can view those.
Have a great day!
Brian Carpenter
EMWD.com
brian@emwd.com
From: Veronica Morris veronica.m.psdp@gmail.com Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 12:50 PM To: Brian Carpenter brian@emwd.com Cc: mailman-users@python.org Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Messages delivered out of order and delayed
How do I see mail logs?
Sorry to be so dense!
Veronica Morris PhD and Hestia SD (Japanese Chin)
Partnered with a psychiatric service dog since 2005
President of Psychiatric Service Dog Partnersveronica@psych.dog mailto:veronica@psych.dog
https://www.psychdogpartners.org
http://www.doctorv.xyz https://www.youtube.com/+VeronicaMorris
https://www.facebook.com/DrVeronicaMorris
On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 12:39 PM Brian Carpenter
You should be seeing almost instaneous deliveries with Gmail. The mail logs will show what’s going on. I know Dreamhost doesn’t use cPanel but I am not sure what mail server they us. I know Exim has some settings that can interfere with the timely deliveries of messages.
Have a great day!
Brian Carpenter
EMWD.com
brian@emwd.com mailto:brian@emwd.com
From: Veronica Morris
I am using dreamhost.
Almost all of the people on the listserv use gmail. I have asked if people with other email addresses experience the same problem, but no one has replied.
Is that what you mean by ISP?
Sorry I am very new to this type of thing! I have no experience with computers!
I will contact Dreamhost, that is an excellent idea!
Veronica Morris PhD and Hestia SD (Japanese Chin)
Partnered with a psychiatric service dog since 2005
President of Psychiatric Service Dog Partnersveronica@psych.dog mailto:veronica@psych.dog
https://www.psychdogpartners.org
http://www.doctorv.xyz https://www.youtube.com/+VeronicaMorris
https://www.facebook.com/DrVeronicaMorris
On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 12:30 PM Brian Carpenter
Hi Veronica,
What hosting service/platform are you using for your discussion list? Are you noticing delays with the same ISPs or does it vary by ISP? I would reach out to your hosting provider and then let know of 3 list members that are experiencing consistent delays and they should be able to review their mail log. If you are on cPanel then you can use the track delivery tool to see what is happening with those list members that are experiencing the longest delays.
Have a great day!
Brian Carpenter EMWD.com brian@emwd.com mailto:brian@emwd.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Mailman-Users
I run an active discussion group. Messages come and go from people all hours of the day.
For the past few months, we've noticed that messages are arriving out of order, and sometimes are delayed by hours or even a day!
The kicker is that the delivery issues are not the same for everyone. Some people will get a particular message immediately, while others will get that message in an hour, and others in a day.
Most of our users use gmail.
What can we do to fix this? As ours is a discussion group, timing is pretty important so that the flow of the conversation isn't interrupted by people not having read previous messages.
Thank you!
Veronica Morris PhD and Hestia SD (Japanese Chin) Partnered with a psychiatric service dog since 2005 President of Psychiatric Service Dog Partners veronica@psych.dog mailto:veronica@psych.dog https://www.psychdogpartners.org http://www.doctorv.xyz https://www.youtube.com/+VeronicaMorris https://www.facebook.com/DrVeronicaMorris
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org mailto:Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/brian%40emwd.com
Thanks!
I have not called them yet. We are a small nonprofit, and my husband handles all the contacts with dreamhost. I have asked him to contact them. Neither of us has much computer experience as you can probably tell :)
Veronica Morris PhD and Hestia SD (Japanese Chin) Partnered with a psychiatric service dog since 2005 President of Psychiatric Service Dog Partners veronica@psych.dog https://www.psychdogpartners.org http://www.doctorv.xyz https://www.youtube.com/+VeronicaMorris https://www.facebook.com/DrVeronicaMorris
On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 12:53 PM Carl Zwanzig cpz@tuunq.com wrote:
On 9/13/2019 9:50 AM, Veronica Morris wrote:
How do I see mail logs?
You need to talk with Dreamhost to get them, but they should be able to assist with the problem. Have you called them?
Later,
z!
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/veronica.m.psdp%40gmai...
Thanks all for the help! I submitted a ticket with DreamHost, and below is their reply. I am hoping it makes a difference!
Hello Veronica,
Thanks for contacting DreamHost!
Looking into this for you, it looks like Google is rate-limiting the emails, due to the emails not being authenticated (due to it being a discussion list). It already looks like you have set Mung From:
http://list.psychdogpartners.org/admin.cgi/psdp-psychdogpartners.org/?VARHEL... neral/from_is_list
but Google is still not liking the emails. :(
Sep 13 13:34:01 pdx1-mailman02 postfix/smtp[19918]: A5E3A4C585D: to=veronica.m.psdp@gmail.com, relay=alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com[173.194.192.26]:25, delay=2380, delays=2377/2/0.67/0.43, dsn=4.7.0, status=deferred (host alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com[173.194.192.26] said: 421-4.7.0 This message does not have authentication information or fails to pass 421-4.7.0 authentication checks. To best protect our users from spam, the 421-4.7.0 message has been blocked. Please visit 421-4.7.0 https://support.google.com/mail/answer/81126#authentication for more 421 4.7.0 information. c6si35691047iok.161 - gsmtp (in reply to end of DATA command))
To help with this, I have created a SPF for your domain. Please allow for up to 4 hours for DNS propagation and to see if that does make a difference. If there is anything else you need help with, please let me know! Thanks! Have a great day!
Veronica Morris PhD and Hestia SD (Japanese Chin) Partnered with a psychiatric service dog since 2005 President of Psychiatric Service Dog Partners veronica@psych.dog https://www.psychdogpartners.org http://www.doctorv.xyz https://www.youtube.com/+VeronicaMorris https://www.facebook.com/DrVeronicaMorris
On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 12:53 PM Carl Zwanzig cpz@tuunq.com wrote:
On 9/13/2019 9:50 AM, Veronica Morris wrote:
How do I see mail logs?
You need to talk with Dreamhost to get them, but they should be able to assist with the problem. Have you called them?
Later,
z!
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/veronica.m.psdp%40gmai...
On 9/13/19 5:32 PM, Veronica Morris wrote:
Thanks all for the help! I submitted a ticket with DreamHost, and below is their reply. I am hoping it makes a difference!
It's typical of Nightmare er.. Dream Host.
Hello Veronica,
Thanks for contacting DreamHost!
Looking into this for you, it looks like Google is rate-limiting the emails, due to the emails not being authenticated (due to it being a discussion list).
DreamHost should be DKIM signing outgoing mail from your domain. The mail being from a 'discussion list' has nothing to do with it. There's no reason why they can't do this other than they just don't want to.
...
Sep 13 13:34:01 pdx1-mailman02 postfix/smtp[19918]: A5E3A4C585D: to=veronica.m.psdp@gmail.com, relay=alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com[173.194.192.26]:25, delay=2380, delays=2377/2/0.67/0.43, dsn=4.7.0, status=deferred (host alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com[173.194.192.26] said: 421-4.7.0 This message does not have authentication information or fails to pass 421-4.7.0 authentication checks. To best protect our users from spam, the 421-4.7.0 message has been blocked. Please visit 421-4.7.0 https://support.google.com/mail/answer/81126#authentication for more 421 4.7.0 information. c6si35691047iok.161 - gsmtp (in reply to end of DATA command))
To help with this, I have created a SPF for your domain. Please allow for up to 4 hours for DNS propagation and to see if that does make a difference. If there is anything else you need help with, please let me know! Thanks! Have a great day!
The SPF may help, but the mail should also be DKIM signed. Also, without seeing the complete raw message headers as received from the list (when viewing a message in the Gmail web UI, click the 'more' icon listserver-moon.dreamhost.com.
- 3 vertical dots - and 'show original') I can't be sure, but there may be DNS issues. I.e., the IP address for list.psychdogpartners.org is 64.90.62.213, but a reverse lookup of that IP points to
DreamHost should be doing all the right things by default, but it appears they may not be.
-- Mark Sapiro mark@msapiro.net The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
Indeed email is not a synchronous messaging channel. But most email clients will sort incoming messages by header Date thus undo the effects of out-of-order delivery.
Even if you send out two messages in a row to joe@gmail.com there is no guarantee that both messages go to the same machine. The two receiving machines may have different loads and may not even be running the same software.
Almost all email MTAs send out smaller messages first. In general that is a good thing. It virtually guarantees out of order delivery for a rapid discussion.
The wild random delay is not unique to Mailman. I had a Yahoo Group with a couple hundred addresses. Some messages went in seconds but every once in a while messages took days to get delivered sometimes to a subset of the members. This happened even to @yahoo.com recipients!
Ciao,
//Z\\
Jim Ziobro writes:
Indeed email is not a synchronous messaging channel. But most email clients will sort incoming messages by header Date thus undo the effects of out-of-order delivery.
That's mostly true. However, traditionally the first retry was set for 4 hours after the initial send. If Dreamhost has such a long retry delay, that could cause hours of out-of-order and certainly cut someone out of a hot and heavy discussion. The problem is that the first message from a particular sender will be rejected temporarily and retried after 4 hours, but everything from that sender sent after 15 minutes (typical greylisting delay) will go through the list. Of course anybody the sender CC'd will get it immediately, and may reply. It can be a mess.
Steve
Footnotes: [1] For those who don't know the term: this is an antiabuse device where the recipient rejects the message with a temporary failure, then sets a timer for a few minutes, say 15. If the message is received again after that, it is accepted.
- Stephen J. Turnbull turnbull.stephen.fw@u.tsukuba.ac.jp:
That's mostly true. However, traditionally the first retry was set for 4 hours after the initial send. If Dreamhost has such a long retry delay, that could cause hours of out-of-order and certainly cut someone out of a hot and heavy discussion.
That's quite a lot. I know that postfx for example would rescan the queue after 300s (5m) and probably retry the message then (after an initial failure). Maybe they "tweaked" something :)
Ralf Hildebrandt Charité - Universitätsmedizin Berlin Geschäftsbereich IT | Abteilung Netzwerk
Campus Benjamin Franklin (CBF) Haus I | 1. OG | Raum 105 Hindenburgdamm 30 | D-12203 Berlin
Tel. +49 30 450 570 155 ralf.hildebrandt@charite.de https://www.charite.de
Ralf Hildebrandt writes:
That's [do you mean 4 hours?] quite a lot. I know that postfx for example would rescan the queue after 300s (5m) and probably retry the message then (after an initial failure).
Well, I wouldn't be surprised if nowadays defaults are like that. I haven't changed mine ever (the series of Debian servers that have hosted my domain have been continuously serving mail for almost 25 years).
Maybe they "tweaked" something :)
I suspect that as soon as greylisting became common, they did. On the other hand, if they retry after 5 minutes, they'd get caught again by every greylister I know (all 10 min or more). So the question is how much do they back off?
I guess if I worried about getting my mail delivered a few minutes faster (which I don't :-), I would set the retry schedule every 5m or 10m up to a total of 30m, then back off sort of exponentially 4h, 8h, 16h, then 24h for a total of maybe 5 days.
Steve
I suspect that as soon as greylisting became common, they did. On the other hand, if they retry after 5 minutes, they'd get caught again by every greylister I know (all 10 min or more). So the question is how much do they back off?
Yep, Postfix has a exponential backup, but it won't be much more that 11 minute in total for the 3rd delivery.
-- Ralf Hildebrandt Charité - Universitätsmedizin Berlin Geschäftsbereich IT | Abteilung Netzwerk
Campus Benjamin Franklin (CBF) Haus I | 1. OG | Raum 105 Hindenburgdamm 30 | D-12203 Berlin
Tel. +49 30 450 570 155 ralf.hildebrandt@charite.de https://www.charite.de
Ugh, now all hotmail users are being unsubbed because of bounce action. I'm guessing this may be related to the problem of delayed messages for gmail users? I contacted hotmail as suggested in the help for mailman.
Didn't know dreamhost could be doing more! If what they did doesn't fix the problem, I'll contact them and ask them about the DKIM signing.
Veronica Morris PhD and Hestia SD (Japanese Chin) Partnered with a psychiatric service dog since 2005 President of Psychiatric Service Dog Partners veronica@psych.dog https://www.psychdogpartners.org http://www.doctorv.xyz https://www.youtube.com/+VeronicaMorris https://www.facebook.com/DrVeronicaMorris
On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 9:23 PM Mark Sapiro mark@msapiro.net wrote:
On 9/13/19 5:32 PM, Veronica Morris wrote:
Thanks all for the help! I submitted a ticket with DreamHost, and below is their reply. I am hoping it makes a difference!
It's typical of Nightmare er.. Dream Host.
Hello Veronica,
Thanks for contacting DreamHost!
Looking into this for you, it looks like Google is rate-limiting the emails, due to the emails not being authenticated (due to it being a discussion list).
DreamHost should be DKIM signing outgoing mail from your domain. The mail being from a 'discussion list' has nothing to do with it. There's no reason why they can't do this other than they just don't want to.
...
Sep 13 13:34:01 pdx1-mailman02 postfix/smtp[19918]: A5E3A4C585D: to=veronica.m.psdp@gmail.com, relay=alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com[173.194.192.26]:25, delay=2380, delays=2377/2/0.67/0.43, dsn=4.7.0, status=deferred (host alt1.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com[173.194.192.26] said: 421-4.7.0 This message does not have authentication information or fails to pass 421-4.7.0 authentication checks. To best protect our users from spam, the 421-4.7.0 message has been blocked. Please visit 421-4.7.0 https://support.google.com/mail/answer/81126#authentication for more 421 4.7.0 information. c6si35691047iok.161 - gsmtp (in reply to end of DATA command))
To help with this, I have created a SPF for your domain. Please allow for up to 4 hours for DNS propagation and to see if that does make a difference. If there is anything else you need help with, please let me know! Thanks! Have a great day!
The SPF may help, but the mail should also be DKIM signed. Also, without seeing the complete raw message headers as received from the list (when viewing a message in the Gmail web UI, click the 'more' icon listserver-moon.dreamhost.com.
- 3 vertical dots - and 'show original') I can't be sure, but there may be DNS issues. I.e., the IP address for list.psychdogpartners.org is 64.90.62.213, but a reverse lookup of that IP points to
DreamHost should be doing all the right things by default, but it appears they may not be.
-- Mark Sapiro mark@msapiro.net The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/veronica.m.psdp%40gmai...
On 9/14/19 6:33 PM, Veronica Morris wrote:
Ugh, now all hotmail users are being unsubbed because of bounce action.
If you have Bounce processing -> bounce_notify_owner_on_disable set to Yes, the disabled notice will contain a copy of the bounce notification from Hotmail. What does it say?
-- Mark Sapiro mark@msapiro.net The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
Here is what it says:
Subject: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender This is the mail system at host pdx1-mailman02.dreamhost.com.
I'm sorry to have to inform you that your message could not be delivered to one or more recipients. It's attached below.
If you are a current customer of DreamHost, please contact our technical support team here
https://panel.dreamhost.com/support
If you are not a customer please use our contact form at.
If you do so, please include this email in your support ticket. You can delete your own text from the attached returned message.
DreamHost Email SupportVeronica Morris PhD and Hestia SD (Japanese Chin) Partnered with a psychiatric service dog since 2005 President of Psychiatric Service Dog Partners veronica@psych.dog https://www.psychdogpartners.org http://www.doctorv.xyz https://www.youtube.com/+VeronicaMorris https://www.facebook.com/DrVeronicaMorris
On Sat, Sep 14, 2019 at 10:15 PM Mark Sapiro mark@msapiro.net wrote:
On 9/14/19 6:33 PM, Veronica Morris wrote:
Ugh, now all hotmail users are being unsubbed because of bounce action.
If you have Bounce processing -> bounce_notify_owner_on_disable set to Yes, the disabled notice will contain a copy of the bounce notification from Hotmail. What does it say?
-- Mark Sapiro mark@msapiro.net The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/veronica.m.psdp%40gmai...
On 9/14/19 7:23 PM, Veronica Morris wrote:
Here is what it says: ...> If you are a current customer of DreamHost, please contact our technical support team here
You could try this contact with this specific issue.
rickiesmom1@hotmail.commailaddressredacted@hotmail.com>: delivery temporarily suspended: lost connection with hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com[104.47.58.33] while sending RCPT TO
This says hotmail's server disconnected very early in the SMTP transaction. This says it doesn't like your IP or maybe its reverse DNS.
It is not an issue with DMARC or DKIM signing as the disconnect occurred before any of that information was sent.
Only DreamHost can fix this.
-- Mark Sapiro mark@msapiro.net The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
On 9/13/19 6:59 AM, Veronica Morris wrote:
I run an active discussion group. Messages come and go from people all hours of the day.
For the past few months, we've noticed that messages are arriving out of order, and sometimes are delayed by hours or even a day!
The kicker is that the delivery issues are not the same for everyone. Some people will get a particular message immediately, while others will get that message in an hour, and others in a day.
Most of our users use gmail.
What can we do to fix this? As ours is a discussion group, timing is pretty important so that the flow of the conversation isn't interrupted by people not having read previous messages.
First, it appears that message delivery from Mailman is slow. There are multiple possible reasons for this. It can be that SMTP delivery from Mailman to the outgoing MTA is slow - see the FAQ at https://wiki.list.org/x/17892002. If this is the case, the FAQ has some suggestions for fixing this.
It can also be the case that delivery from the outgoing MTA to the various recipient MTAs is being throttled by the recipient MTAs. Examination of the outgoing MTA's logs should reveal this.
Also, if people reply-all to posts rather than replying just to the list, the direct recipients will probably get the reply before the other list members.
In short, you need access to Mailman's logs and the outgoing MTA's logs in order to diagnose this further.
-- Mark Sapiro mark@msapiro.net The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
participants (7)
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Brian Carpenter -
Carl Zwanzig -
Jim Ziobro -
Mark Sapiro -
Ralf Hildebrandt -
Stephen J. Turnbull -
Veronica Morris