Question about Mailman domain and OS X server set-up.
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/0ab9adb1429cda7ba37c1fc6b7d1b7b1.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
Hi Mark (Sapiro) and other members,
While discussing some possible DNS set-up issues I might need to resolve on my server a certain IT professional mentioned to me that Mailman shouldn't be run using a virtual domain. I am not sure if this professional was referring to virtual domains in general or only those running on Mac OS X Server.
Do you know if this is true ? Do you see any problems with Mailman running from a Virtual domain ? Let me make this a little clearer. I have a Mac server on a single IP address and host several domains. The primary domain name (the one returned when you do a search on my IP address) is domain1.com and the Mailman list is being run on domain2.com (one of several virtual domains hosted on the same server).
Any Mac specialists on the list that know the answer to this question ?
Thank you in advance,
Joe
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/7bdecdef03708b218939094eb05e8b35.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
On Mar 28, 2011, at 1:31 AM, JRC Groups wrote:
In general, there are absolutely no problems running Mailman on a machine that hosts multiple virtual domains. The machines at python.org do this today. While the official purpose of the machines is to serve the python.org domain and the mailing lists for this domain, there are lists for multiple other virtual domains that are also hosted there, and a single Mailman instance manages all those mailing lists just fine.
There are some issues you need to be aware of with regards to using a single Mailman instance to handle mailing lists for multiple virtual domains, which are detailed in the FAQ wiki. But so long as you make sure that you don't ever try to create a mailing list by the same name in multiple different virtual domains that are handled by the same Mailman instance, there shouldn't be any major problems.
However, the version of Mailman as shipped by Apple has some significant differences from the official version of Mailman as we provide for download from the list.org site (and mirrors).
These issues are also covered in the FAQ Wiki, but the gist is that we cannot definitively provide answers for how the Apple-provided version of Mailman will work. Since they modified the code that is installed, if you want support for the Apple-provided version of Mailman, you would need to go to Apple for that. We can give you our best guess for how we think things should work in those kinds of situations, but that's about the best we can do.
-- Brad Knowles <brad@shub-internet.org> LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/56f108518d7ee2544412cc80978e3182.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
JRC Groups wrote:
Just a quick addendum to Brad's response. From the point of view of the mail server rather than Mailman, There should be full circle DNS. I.e., an rDNS lookup of the server's IP address should give a host/domain name and a lookup of that name should return an A record (not a CNAME) with the same IP. Also, when sending mail, the server should identify itself in HELO with the same name.
These things should be true for any mail server regardless of Mailman.
Now if a mailman list is in a virtual domain, the envelope sender of messages from that list will be the virtual domain. This is fine, but if the virtual domain publishes an SPF record, it needs to specify the server's name as a permitted sender.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/0ab9adb1429cda7ba37c1fc6b7d1b7b1.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
Thank you Mark and Brad for your replies.
The problem that keeps throwing me off is the problem we discussed here before. The list info page keeps reverting back to the name of the server instead of the name of the domain. I have, as you suggested, edited the mailman configuration file several times and every time I do it the info page changes to displaying the domain name associated with the list on the page. But as soon as I do anything in OS X Server's System Administration tool it reverts back to the server's name.
I've been told it could be related to way I have OS X Server set-up. Based on a discussion I have had with another Apple Consultant I have even considered downloading Mailman and doing a fresh install to use this version instead of the one that Apple bundles with OS X. However I am afraid that (1) this could cause some type of conflict and (2) if the problem is related to some of my settings in OS X Server it may not work just as the bundled version doesn't.
Is there anyone on the list who is familiar with both OS X Server and Mailman to help with this problem ? I am willing to pay a consultation fee to someone who can connect to my server remotely and help solve this issue.
Thank you in advance,
Joe
On 3/28/11 1:27 PM, "Mark Sapiro" <mark@msapiro.net> wrote:
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/56f108518d7ee2544412cc80978e3182.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
JRC Groups wrote:
This is some Apple thing. I can't help you with it, but perhaps someone else on this list can.
I can't answer number 2 one way or the other, but for number 1, see the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/O4A9>.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/7bdecdef03708b218939094eb05e8b35.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
On Mar 30, 2011, at 6:15 PM, JRC Groups wrote:
I've been an Apple consultant, at least part-time. I came within a hairs breadth of doing that job full-time for a local Apple VAR. I've got all the PDF versions of all the official Apple documentation on Mac OS X and Mac OS X Server, as well as PDF versions of the good 3rd party books on the subject. And I've been a professional Unix system administrator and consultant for over twenty years.
The guy who used to run lists.apple.com was involved in the development and support of Mailman long before I came along, and has more experience in the business than I do.
I don't mean to sound pessimistic or to rain on your parade, but in both cases, the solution was to blow away the stuff that Apple ships, and to install the "real deal" code as downloaded from list.org.
The Mailman project is freely available open source (under a GNU license, no less), and the support we provide is best effort. There is no commercial version of Mailman that we sell or officially support. Anyone else that includes Mailman as part of a commercial product or service that they sell, should include with that a full after-sales support staff.
Note that there isn't going to be a separate "Server" edition of Mac OS X "Lion".
No one seems to know if this means that all the stuff that the "Server" edition used to include will now be available to everyone, and that all the people who developed the "Server" edition of Mac OS X have been transitioned over to the mainline code development team, or if that means that a lot of products and services will get thrown out the door as Apple re-focuses exclusively on the retail/home user market.
But that is certainly something that you should keep in mind as you look towards solutions in this space.
-- Brad Knowles <brad@shub-internet.org> LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/1c4a4096ba25b08fbf1a8cb1c4bf9fcb.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
On 3/30/11 7:36 PM, Brad Knowles at brad@shub-internet.org wrote:
I'll add that there are a number of here who run Mailman on OS X "Client". Searching the archives, you will find full step-by-step directions for installing it. Blowing away the Apple provided Mailman (or just ignoring it) and installing a clean unmodified version from source will give you, on OS X Server, the same as those of on "Client" have.
-- Larry Stone lstone19@stonejongleux.com http://www.stonejongleux.com/
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/0ab9adb1429cda7ba37c1fc6b7d1b7b1.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
Thanks Brad and Mark for your helpful and detailed replies.
I have reached a point where I have the lists almost working but there are some issues still preventing the systems from functioning in a way that allows me to confident to launch these lists I wish to create.
Apple's support has been MIA at best so I have given up and decided to seek other alternatives. Also, the numerous individuals I have spoken with at Apple were clearly (1) not interested in making any improvements or fixing the current issues with the version of Mailman that ships with OS X Server and (2) didn't know any more about it than I do (which is quite embarrassing considering they are part of the company's business support department).
I can't imagine that there is anything other than some minor set-up issues that need to be corrected with my system. After all, I am sending and receiving e-mails and the lists are functional (to an extent anyway) as they send and receive messages. However, as I stated above, I don't want to launch the lists only to attract subscribers and then find out in a short while that Mailman has stopped working because something with my system wasn't set-up properly.
I also can't imagine that it would be too difficult to install a new version of Mailman and manage it using its browser-based interface while ignoring Apple's System Administrator tool for this specific task.
Brad, since you have this much experience with OS X Server would you be interested in helping me with my problem ? In case you are, please contact me off-list so that we can discuss it. I believe you should be able to connect remotely, right ? In case you are not interested, would you recommend me someone who is knowledgeable on both OS X Server and Mailman ? I have contacted numerous Apple consultants but couldn't find a single one who had any experience with Mailman.
Thanks again for your helpful replies.
Best regards,
Joe
On 3/30/11 5:36 PM, "Brad Knowles" <brad@shub-internet.org> wrote:
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/1c4a4096ba25b08fbf1a8cb1c4bf9fcb.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
On 4/3/11 1:42 AM, JRC Groups at joemailgroups@gmail.com wrote:
It should not be difficult. I'll repeat what I posted Wednesday:
"I'll add that there are a number of here who run Mailman on OS X "Client". Searching the archives, you will find full step-by-step directions for installing it. Blowing away the Apple provided Mailman (or just ignoring it) and installing a clean unmodified version from source will give you, on OS X Server, the same as those of on "Client" have."
Going through the process yourself will teach you far more than having someone do it for you.
-- Larry Stone lstone19@stonejongleux.com http://www.stonejongleux.com/
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/7bdecdef03708b218939094eb05e8b35.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
Sorry, my wife's computer has been down for days, and in the meanwhile she as taken over mine. At this point, all I've got is an iPad and a semi-wonky server in the closet, and neither of them is well suited for keeping up with lots of email. I'll fix that when I get her computer repaired and back into her hands so that I can get my computer back, but until then I'm going to be even more of an absentee admin for this list than normal.
I may actually be getting a job soon doing Enterprise Mac OS X consulting, and if I do then I will let you folks know. If that happens, then I could potentially be available to do remote consulting for this kind of stuff through my employer.
-- Brad Knowles Sent from my iPad
On Apr 3, 2011, at 1:42 AM, JRC Groups <joemailgroups@gmail.com> wrote:
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/0ab9adb1429cda7ba37c1fc6b7d1b7b1.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
Mark,
Thank you for your helpful reply.
Considering Brad isn't available at this time, would you know of anyone you could recommend who is experienced with OS X Server to help me with my problem ?
All I need is for someone who is experienced with OS Server and understands its System Administrator tool to log in on my server remotely and review my settings to make sure I haven't done anything wrong and possibly make a few corrections if they happen to be necessary. It goes without saying that I will be happy to pay for the consultation fee.
After I am sure that everything is set-up properly on the server I will then continue with Mailman and decide whether I should just use the one bundled with OS X Server or if I should download it and do new install.
Thank you,
Joe
On 3/28/11 1:27 PM, "Mark Sapiro" <mark@msapiro.net> wrote:
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/faefa019c0ca81f8efa0ccab746ee2f8.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/faefa019c0ca81f8efa0ccab746ee2f8.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
Have you contacted http://osx.topicdesk.com/content/section/4/41/ ? The have tools and good reputation for mac os x server support services
Consultancy : http://osx.topicdesk.com/content/view/12/36/
On 07 Apr 2011, at 04:28, Mark Sapiro wrote:
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/7bdecdef03708b218939094eb05e8b35.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
On Mar 28, 2011, at 1:31 AM, JRC Groups wrote:
In general, there are absolutely no problems running Mailman on a machine that hosts multiple virtual domains. The machines at python.org do this today. While the official purpose of the machines is to serve the python.org domain and the mailing lists for this domain, there are lists for multiple other virtual domains that are also hosted there, and a single Mailman instance manages all those mailing lists just fine.
There are some issues you need to be aware of with regards to using a single Mailman instance to handle mailing lists for multiple virtual domains, which are detailed in the FAQ wiki. But so long as you make sure that you don't ever try to create a mailing list by the same name in multiple different virtual domains that are handled by the same Mailman instance, there shouldn't be any major problems.
However, the version of Mailman as shipped by Apple has some significant differences from the official version of Mailman as we provide for download from the list.org site (and mirrors).
These issues are also covered in the FAQ Wiki, but the gist is that we cannot definitively provide answers for how the Apple-provided version of Mailman will work. Since they modified the code that is installed, if you want support for the Apple-provided version of Mailman, you would need to go to Apple for that. We can give you our best guess for how we think things should work in those kinds of situations, but that's about the best we can do.
-- Brad Knowles <brad@shub-internet.org> LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/56f108518d7ee2544412cc80978e3182.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
JRC Groups wrote:
Just a quick addendum to Brad's response. From the point of view of the mail server rather than Mailman, There should be full circle DNS. I.e., an rDNS lookup of the server's IP address should give a host/domain name and a lookup of that name should return an A record (not a CNAME) with the same IP. Also, when sending mail, the server should identify itself in HELO with the same name.
These things should be true for any mail server regardless of Mailman.
Now if a mailman list is in a virtual domain, the envelope sender of messages from that list will be the virtual domain. This is fine, but if the virtual domain publishes an SPF record, it needs to specify the server's name as a permitted sender.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/0ab9adb1429cda7ba37c1fc6b7d1b7b1.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
Thank you Mark and Brad for your replies.
The problem that keeps throwing me off is the problem we discussed here before. The list info page keeps reverting back to the name of the server instead of the name of the domain. I have, as you suggested, edited the mailman configuration file several times and every time I do it the info page changes to displaying the domain name associated with the list on the page. But as soon as I do anything in OS X Server's System Administration tool it reverts back to the server's name.
I've been told it could be related to way I have OS X Server set-up. Based on a discussion I have had with another Apple Consultant I have even considered downloading Mailman and doing a fresh install to use this version instead of the one that Apple bundles with OS X. However I am afraid that (1) this could cause some type of conflict and (2) if the problem is related to some of my settings in OS X Server it may not work just as the bundled version doesn't.
Is there anyone on the list who is familiar with both OS X Server and Mailman to help with this problem ? I am willing to pay a consultation fee to someone who can connect to my server remotely and help solve this issue.
Thank you in advance,
Joe
On 3/28/11 1:27 PM, "Mark Sapiro" <mark@msapiro.net> wrote:
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/56f108518d7ee2544412cc80978e3182.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
JRC Groups wrote:
This is some Apple thing. I can't help you with it, but perhaps someone else on this list can.
I can't answer number 2 one way or the other, but for number 1, see the FAQ at <http://wiki.list.org/x/O4A9>.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/7bdecdef03708b218939094eb05e8b35.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
On Mar 30, 2011, at 6:15 PM, JRC Groups wrote:
I've been an Apple consultant, at least part-time. I came within a hairs breadth of doing that job full-time for a local Apple VAR. I've got all the PDF versions of all the official Apple documentation on Mac OS X and Mac OS X Server, as well as PDF versions of the good 3rd party books on the subject. And I've been a professional Unix system administrator and consultant for over twenty years.
The guy who used to run lists.apple.com was involved in the development and support of Mailman long before I came along, and has more experience in the business than I do.
I don't mean to sound pessimistic or to rain on your parade, but in both cases, the solution was to blow away the stuff that Apple ships, and to install the "real deal" code as downloaded from list.org.
The Mailman project is freely available open source (under a GNU license, no less), and the support we provide is best effort. There is no commercial version of Mailman that we sell or officially support. Anyone else that includes Mailman as part of a commercial product or service that they sell, should include with that a full after-sales support staff.
Note that there isn't going to be a separate "Server" edition of Mac OS X "Lion".
No one seems to know if this means that all the stuff that the "Server" edition used to include will now be available to everyone, and that all the people who developed the "Server" edition of Mac OS X have been transitioned over to the mainline code development team, or if that means that a lot of products and services will get thrown out the door as Apple re-focuses exclusively on the retail/home user market.
But that is certainly something that you should keep in mind as you look towards solutions in this space.
-- Brad Knowles <brad@shub-internet.org> LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/1c4a4096ba25b08fbf1a8cb1c4bf9fcb.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
On 3/30/11 7:36 PM, Brad Knowles at brad@shub-internet.org wrote:
I'll add that there are a number of here who run Mailman on OS X "Client". Searching the archives, you will find full step-by-step directions for installing it. Blowing away the Apple provided Mailman (or just ignoring it) and installing a clean unmodified version from source will give you, on OS X Server, the same as those of on "Client" have.
-- Larry Stone lstone19@stonejongleux.com http://www.stonejongleux.com/
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/0ab9adb1429cda7ba37c1fc6b7d1b7b1.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
Thanks Brad and Mark for your helpful and detailed replies.
I have reached a point where I have the lists almost working but there are some issues still preventing the systems from functioning in a way that allows me to confident to launch these lists I wish to create.
Apple's support has been MIA at best so I have given up and decided to seek other alternatives. Also, the numerous individuals I have spoken with at Apple were clearly (1) not interested in making any improvements or fixing the current issues with the version of Mailman that ships with OS X Server and (2) didn't know any more about it than I do (which is quite embarrassing considering they are part of the company's business support department).
I can't imagine that there is anything other than some minor set-up issues that need to be corrected with my system. After all, I am sending and receiving e-mails and the lists are functional (to an extent anyway) as they send and receive messages. However, as I stated above, I don't want to launch the lists only to attract subscribers and then find out in a short while that Mailman has stopped working because something with my system wasn't set-up properly.
I also can't imagine that it would be too difficult to install a new version of Mailman and manage it using its browser-based interface while ignoring Apple's System Administrator tool for this specific task.
Brad, since you have this much experience with OS X Server would you be interested in helping me with my problem ? In case you are, please contact me off-list so that we can discuss it. I believe you should be able to connect remotely, right ? In case you are not interested, would you recommend me someone who is knowledgeable on both OS X Server and Mailman ? I have contacted numerous Apple consultants but couldn't find a single one who had any experience with Mailman.
Thanks again for your helpful replies.
Best regards,
Joe
On 3/30/11 5:36 PM, "Brad Knowles" <brad@shub-internet.org> wrote:
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/1c4a4096ba25b08fbf1a8cb1c4bf9fcb.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
On 4/3/11 1:42 AM, JRC Groups at joemailgroups@gmail.com wrote:
It should not be difficult. I'll repeat what I posted Wednesday:
"I'll add that there are a number of here who run Mailman on OS X "Client". Searching the archives, you will find full step-by-step directions for installing it. Blowing away the Apple provided Mailman (or just ignoring it) and installing a clean unmodified version from source will give you, on OS X Server, the same as those of on "Client" have."
Going through the process yourself will teach you far more than having someone do it for you.
-- Larry Stone lstone19@stonejongleux.com http://www.stonejongleux.com/
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/7bdecdef03708b218939094eb05e8b35.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
Sorry, my wife's computer has been down for days, and in the meanwhile she as taken over mine. At this point, all I've got is an iPad and a semi-wonky server in the closet, and neither of them is well suited for keeping up with lots of email. I'll fix that when I get her computer repaired and back into her hands so that I can get my computer back, but until then I'm going to be even more of an absentee admin for this list than normal.
I may actually be getting a job soon doing Enterprise Mac OS X consulting, and if I do then I will let you folks know. If that happens, then I could potentially be available to do remote consulting for this kind of stuff through my employer.
-- Brad Knowles Sent from my iPad
On Apr 3, 2011, at 1:42 AM, JRC Groups <joemailgroups@gmail.com> wrote:
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/0ab9adb1429cda7ba37c1fc6b7d1b7b1.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
Mark,
Thank you for your helpful reply.
Considering Brad isn't available at this time, would you know of anyone you could recommend who is experienced with OS X Server to help me with my problem ?
All I need is for someone who is experienced with OS Server and understands its System Administrator tool to log in on my server remotely and review my settings to make sure I haven't done anything wrong and possibly make a few corrections if they happen to be necessary. It goes without saying that I will be happy to pay for the consultation fee.
After I am sure that everything is set-up properly on the server I will then continue with Mailman and decide whether I should just use the one bundled with OS X Server or if I should download it and do new install.
Thank you,
Joe
On 3/28/11 1:27 PM, "Mark Sapiro" <mark@msapiro.net> wrote:
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/faefa019c0ca81f8efa0ccab746ee2f8.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/faefa019c0ca81f8efa0ccab746ee2f8.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
Have you contacted http://osx.topicdesk.com/content/section/4/41/ ? The have tools and good reputation for mac os x server support services
Consultancy : http://osx.topicdesk.com/content/view/12/36/
On 07 Apr 2011, at 04:28, Mark Sapiro wrote:
participants (5)
-
Brad Knowles
-
Ch Abarguia
-
JRC Groups
-
Larry Stone
-
Mark Sapiro