Problem with archrunner using large %'s of cpu (read faq & archives)
I'm using Mailman 2.1.2 on FreeBSD v4.8-Release, built using the port. MTA is sendmail 8.12.8p1
Very frequently I will see the ArchRunner process using 99+ % of cpu. I have searched the archives and found lots of messages about qrunners using large percentages of cpu, but they all seem to talk about the fixes being related to actual mail processing (sendmail), not archRunner. I am assuming that if the problem was mail delivery or reception I would be seeing the large cpu use on a different qrunner process. My issue is specific to the archrunner process which I don't find much on in the archives/faq.
I am using a pretty default install, haven't tweaked anything. If it helps... here are some possibly germane things:
- I never seem to be able to catch anything in /usr/local/mailman/qfiles/archive, but that may be a timing thing, as my archives do appear to be getting updated.
- I looked in the /usr/local/mailman/archives/private/*.mbox directories, and find listname.mbox at 33mb and listname.mbox.1 at 54mb. Could it be that these files are just so big that it takes huge amounts of cpu to add posts to these? I'm guessing they are the archives. This gives rise to several questions (someone else maintained this setup before I did). Does mailman split them (the .1 file), or can I just rename listname.mbox to listname.mbox.2 and mailman will have a smaller chunk to deal with?
Any thoughts? Thanks in advance!!!
I have another question or two but will post separately for them.
Jay West
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
Well you've pegged it. That was a bug in version 2.1.2 which is fixed in 2.1.3. The patch for 2.1.2 should still be available - you could probably patch your running system and just leave it at that (an upgrade will bring the patch in anyway).
Good Luck - Jon Carnes
On Fri, 2003-10-31 at 09:26, Jay West wrote:
I'm using Mailman 2.1.2 on FreeBSD v4.8-Release, built using the port. MTA is sendmail 8.12.8p1
Very frequently I will see the ArchRunner process using 99+ % of cpu. I have searched the archives and found lots of messages about qrunners using large percentages of cpu, but they all seem to talk about the fixes being related to actual mail processing (sendmail), not archRunner. I am assuming that if the problem was mail delivery or reception I would be seeing the large cpu use on a different qrunner process. My issue is specific to the archrunner process which I don't find much on in the archives/faq.
I am using a pretty default install, haven't tweaked anything. If it helps... here are some possibly germane things:
- I never seem to be able to catch anything in /usr/local/mailman/qfiles/archive, but that may be a timing thing, as my archives do appear to be getting updated.
- I looked in the /usr/local/mailman/archives/private/*.mbox directories, and find listname.mbox at 33mb and listname.mbox.1 at 54mb. Could it be that these files are just so big that it takes huge amounts of cpu to add posts to these? I'm guessing they are the archives. This gives rise to several questions (someone else maintained this setup before I did). Does mailman split them (the .1 file), or can I just rename listname.mbox to listname.mbox.2 and mailman will have a smaller chunk to deal with?
Any thoughts? Thanks in advance!!!
I have another question or two but will post separately for them.
Jay West
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On Fri, Oct 31, 2003 at 09:40:11AM -0500, Jon Carnes wrote:
On Fri, 2003-10-31 at 09:26, Jay West wrote:
I'm using Mailman 2.1.2 on FreeBSD v4.8-Release, built using the port. MTA is sendmail 8.12.8p1
Very frequently I will see the ArchRunner process using 99+ % of cpu. I have searched the archives and found lots of messages about qrunners using large percentages of cpu, but they all seem to talk about the fixes being related to actual mail processing (sendmail), not archRunner. I am assuming that if the problem was mail delivery or reception I would be seeing the large cpu use on a different qrunner process. My issue is specific to the archrunner process which I don't find much on in the archives/faq.
Well you've pegged it. That was a bug in version 2.1.2 which is fixed in 2.1.3. The patch for 2.1.2 should still be available - you could probably patch your running system and just leave it at that (an upgrade will bring the patch in anyway).
I still see this problem with Mailman 2.1.3 for a high-volume list.
PID USERNAME PRI NICE SIZE RES STATE C TIME WCPU CPU COMMAND 66428 mailman 64 0 168M 147M CPU1 0 376.7H 99.02% 99.02% python2.3
That's the archiver process. There are 1318 messages in the archive queue...
12:00:28 Fri Oct 31 # truss -p 66428 break(0x114f6000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x1302c000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x114f8000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x13030000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x114fa000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x13034000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x114fc000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x13038000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x114fe000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x1303c000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x11500000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x13040000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x11502000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x13044000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x11504000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x13048000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x11506000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x1304c000) = 0 (0x0)
Once I kill off the mailman queue runners and clean up the several lock files for this mailing list, it runs just fine and manages to empty the archive queue.
Two days worth of mailman cron jobs were still stuck in the process list.
Supposition: Maybe they were blocked by the list's lockfile?
So, it seems that the archRunner process went off the deep end somewhere between two and three days ago.
I have the htdig patches for 2.1.3 installed. Which might be germane...
-- Scott Lambert KC5MLE Unix SysAdmin lambert@lambertfam.org
On Friday, October 31, 2003, at 08:52 pm, Scott Lambert wrote:
On Fri, Oct 31, 2003 at 09:40:11AM -0500, Jon Carnes wrote:
On Fri, 2003-10-31 at 09:26, Jay West wrote:
I'm using Mailman 2.1.2 on FreeBSD v4.8-Release, built using the port. MTA is sendmail 8.12.8p1
Very frequently I will see the ArchRunner process using 99+ % of cpu. I have searched the archives and found lots of messages about qrunners using large percentages of cpu, but they all seem to talk about the fixes being related to actual mail processing (sendmail), not archRunner. I am assuming that if the problem was mail delivery or reception I would be seeing the large cpu use on a different qrunner process. My issue is specific to the archrunner process which I don't find much on in the archives/faq.
Well you've pegged it. That was a bug in version 2.1.2 which is fixed in 2.1.3. The patch for 2.1.2 should still be available - you could probably patch your running system and just leave it at that (an upgrade will bring the patch in anyway).
I still see this problem with Mailman 2.1.3 for a high-volume list.
PID USERNAME PRI NICE SIZE RES STATE C TIME WCPU CPU COMMAND 66428 mailman 64 0 168M 147M CPU1 0 376.7H 99.02% 99.02% python2.3
That's the archiver process. There are 1318 messages in the archive queue...
12:00:28 Fri Oct 31 # truss -p 66428 break(0x114f6000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x1302c000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x114f8000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x13030000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x114fa000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x13034000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x114fc000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x13038000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x114fe000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x1303c000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x11500000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x13040000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x11502000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x13044000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x11504000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x13048000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x11506000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x1304c000) = 0 (0x0)
Once I kill off the mailman queue runners and clean up the several lock files for this mailing list, it runs just fine and manages to empty the archive queue.
Two days worth of mailman cron jobs were still stuck in the process list.
Supposition: Maybe they were blocked by the list's lockfile?
So, it seems that the archRunner process went off the deep end somewhere between two and three days ago.
I have the htdig patches for 2.1.3 installed. Which might be germane...
If you are referring to patch #444884 then, while I would never say never, it is not highly likely to be the cause. The code inserted by patch #444884 impinges very little on the execution path taken when mail is being archived and archive pages are being generated by pipermail. If you discover any different let me know and I'll take another look at the htdig integration patch.
You say you have the problem with a high volume list. What sort of message sizes and traffic volume is the list handling? Do the messages tend to have large attachments? I have found that the internal pipermail archiver starts to choke on high volume lists and on a least one of them I run the solution I adopted was to reduce the archiving period from a month to a week, which seemed to alleviate the problem. I suspect the problem is partially related to the pickled data structures that pipermail uses to control archiver operation and index generation.
I'm now using a fairly tight Mailman/MHonArc integration for such lists; I developed it because MHonArc has a reputation for handling large archives better than pipermail but I still wanted MM list archive privacy, my htdig integration, etc. A patch for this is available at http://www.openinfo.co.uk/mailman/patches/mhonarc/index.html or as MM patch #820723 on sourceforge. It subcontracts MHonArc to generate the message and period index pages in the normal $prefix/archives/private/<listname>/<archive-period> directory structure while the pipermail/MM code looks after the top level index, archive control and access control. The integration makes the choice of pipermail or MHonArc a per-list option so if you change your mind or decide it was all a big mistake it is not a disaster; select the archiver of choice and run $prefix/bin/arch --wipe to have the archiver of choice regenerate the list archive from the its mbox file.
So far this MM/MH integration has worked OK for me but that's a single data point.
Enough over-selling of a free product and the usual caveat emptor :) but if you give it a try let me know how you get on.
-- Scott Lambert KC5MLE Unix SysAdmin lambert@lambertfam.org
Richard Barrett http://www.openinfo.co.uk
On Fri, Oct 31, 2003 at 03:52:34PM -0500, Scott Lambert wrote:
Once I kill off the mailman queue runners and clean up the several lock files for this mailing list, it runs just fine and manages to empty the archive queue.
Well, the above statement is not entirely accurate. It was working quickly immediately after restart but went downhill. I logged out and took care of other things after seeing it move a good number of messages in a short amount of time. Five hours later, it still had 377 messages in the archive queue and was taking several minutes per message. I trussed it again and saw more of the incredibly long series of breaks, but watched it long than I did this morning. After a lot of breaks it goes to a lot of writes then does some file stuff quickly and repeats for the next message.
I restarted the queue runners again and it it processed fourty or so messages quickly then began the downward spiral again. Within reducing the queue to 177 entries, it was back to 3 minutes per message and expanding. Restarting knocked it down pretty quick for a while then started taking longer again. I was watching more closely this time. After a couple more restart cycles, the queue was cleaned out quickly and all is well.
I haven't looked at the code yet, and probably won't (ENOTIME), but it almost sounds to me like it's not pruning it's list of handled messages and has to walk all of them each time. I would have expected queue handling to get faster as the queue got smaller due to fewer files in the directory that it needs to search through. Maybe it's just a function of the python datastructure being used.
The fast after restart part makes me doubt that it is the size of the archive that is at issue.
The server we are using is a dual PIII450 machine. I would guess this would not show as such a big problem on a more modern system, but other than the archiver, this box is more than enough for the load on it.
The dual processor aspect of this box is what allows us to miss the archiver running off the deep end until someone complains that the archive search feature is broken. The mail passes through the system just fine using the other processor.
38M 2003-October.txt 13M 2003-October.txt.gz 48M portsidelist.mbox
-- Scott Lambert KC5MLE Unix SysAdmin lambert@lambertfam.org
At 6:21 PM -0500 2003/10/31, Scott Lambert wrote:
I haven't looked at the code yet, and probably won't (ENOTIME), but it almost sounds to me like it's not pruning it's list of handled messages and has to walk all of them each time. I would have expected queue handling to get faster as the queue got smaller due to fewer files in the directory that it needs to search through. Maybe it's just a function of the python datastructure being used.
If it's using files as the queue mechanism, then deleting a file simply marks the entry in the directory as "available", and it still takes just at long to scan the directory afterwards as it did before.
This is a known problem with many MTAs handling large amounts of messages, and is one reason why you should use a hashed directory scheme for your mail queue (a la postfix), or you should periodically stop the MTA, move the mail queue directory aside, create a new mail queue directory (with appropriate ownership and permissions), then move what messages may remain from the old queue back into the new one (or fire up queue runners to clear the old queue while the new one is being used for new mail).
Mailman could very easily be suffering from the same sort of problem -- once you get a directory with a large number of entries in it, it takes a long time to scan it even if there are only a few files that are currently visible. Same problem, perhaps the same solution?
-- Brad Knowles, <brad.knowles@skynet.be>
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania.
GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++)
On Friday, October 31, 2003, at 11:59 pm, Brad Knowles wrote:
At 6:21 PM -0500 2003/10/31, Scott Lambert wrote:
I haven't looked at the code yet, and probably won't (ENOTIME), but
it almost sounds to me like it's not pruning it's list of handled
messages and has to walk all of them each time. I would have expected queue handling to get faster as the queue got smaller due to fewer files in the directory that it needs to search through. Maybe it's just a function of the python datastructure being used.If it's using files as the queue mechanism, then deleting a file
simply marks the entry in the directory as "available", and it still
takes just at long to scan the directory afterwards as it did before.This is a known problem with many MTAs handling large amounts of
messages, and is one reason why you should use a hashed directory
scheme for your mail queue (a la postfix), or you should periodically
stop the MTA, move the mail queue directory aside, create a new mail
queue directory (with appropriate ownership and permissions), then
move what messages may remain from the old queue back into the new one
(or fire up queue runners to clear the old queue while the new one is
being used for new mail).
In MM 2.1.3, the relevant code is in
$prefix/Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py function files() starting at line
204 which is called from $prefix/Mailman/Queue/Runner.py line 89 when
subclassed from $prefix/Mailman/Queue/ArchRunner.py
Rather than just theorize, feel free to make specific suggestions about
the deficiencies and appropriate remedies based on the code being
executed. Dare I say it, you could even submit a patch to fix any
obvious errors in the code.
Mailman could very easily be suffering from the same sort of problem
-- once you get a directory with a large number of entries in it, it
takes a long time to scan it even if there are only a few files that
are currently visible. Same problem, perhaps the same solution?-- Brad Knowles, <brad.knowles@skynet.be>
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania.
GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---)
W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++)
R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)*
z(+++)
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives:
http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/This message was sent to: r.barrett@openinfo.co.uk Unsubscribe or change your options at http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/ r.barrett%40openinfo.co.uk
At 12:52 AM +0000 2003/11/01, Richard Barrett wrote:
Rather than just theorize, feel free to make specific suggestions about the deficiencies and appropriate remedies based on the code being executed. Dare I say it, you could even submit a patch to fix any obvious errors in the code.
I have said before, and I will say again, that I am not a programmer. The last time I did any "real" programming was when I was a senior in college, before I graduated -- 1989.
I can talk intelligently about mechanisms and techniques that are known to have specific flaws, but don't ask me to write or comment on code. If you do, please restrict your languages to Bourne shell or maybe a bit of Perl (not too obfuscated, please).
-- Brad Knowles, <brad.knowles@skynet.be>
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania.
GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++)
On Sat, Nov 01, 2003 at 12:59:24AM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote:
At 6:21 PM -0500 2003/10/31, Scott Lambert wrote:
I haven't looked at the code yet, and probably won't (ENOTIME), but it almost sounds to me like it's not pruning it's list of handled messages and has to walk all of them each time. I would have expected queue handling to get faster as the queue got smaller due to fewer files in the directory that it needs to search through. Maybe it's just a function of the python datastructure being used.
If it's using files as the queue mechanism, then deleting a filesimply marks the entry in the directory as "available", and it still takes just at long to scan the directory afterwards as it did before.
If we were talking about more than 10,000 files, I might buy it. But we are talking about 1300 files. Also the processing goes something like O(n), in reverse, slower as it processes the files in the directory. I might buy it staying slow if it started slow but it doesn't.
-- Scott Lambert KC5MLE Unix SysAdmin lambert@lambertfam.org
On Fri, 2003-10-31 at 21:29, Scott Lambert wrote:
On Sat, Nov 01, 2003 at 12:59:24AM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote:
At 6:21 PM -0500 2003/10/31, Scott Lambert wrote:
I haven't looked at the code yet, and probably won't (ENOTIME), but it almost sounds to me like it's not pruning it's list of handled messages and has to walk all of them each time. I would have expected queue handling to get faster as the queue got smaller due to fewer files in the directory that it needs to search through. Maybe it's just a function of the python datastructure being used.
If it's using files as the queue mechanism, then deleting a filesimply marks the entry in the directory as "available", and it still takes just at long to scan the directory afterwards as it did before.
If we were talking about more than 10,000 files, I might buy it. But we are talking about 1300 files. Also the processing goes something like O(n), in reverse, slower as it processes the files in the directory. I might buy it staying slow if it started slow but it doesn't.
To me it sounds like a memory problem.
I wonder how fast we can fix it?
At 9:29 PM -0500 2003/10/31, Scott Lambert wrote:
If we were talking about more than 10,000 files, I might buy it. But we are talking about 1300 files.
Many filesystems start significantly slowing down around 1,000 files, not 10,000. Moreover, are you sure that this is the largest number of files you've ever had in that directory?
Also the processing goes something likeO(n), in reverse, slower as it processes the files in the directory.
That is a bit strange, but might be explained by holes in the directory structure that need to be skipped.
Imight buy it staying slow if it started slow but it doesn't.
I've seen mail servers at large freemail providers that had previously grown to very large sizes, and worked reasonably well for numbers of files in the low thousands, but seriously flaked out when pushed much beyond that.
Move the directory aside, move the files to a new directory, and restart -- suddenly everything works like magic again.
Unless you know the filesystem code intimately, as well as the code that is using the filesystem, it can be difficult to predict how or when things will break or how badly they will break.
-- Brad Knowles, <brad.knowles@skynet.be>
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania.
GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++)
Scott
Further to my earlier post on this topic, I have taken a look at the
pipermail archiver code.
I concluded that there is a bug (or is it a feature?) which bloats the
size of the -article file in the pipermail "database" for each list.
This bloat will affect archiving performance, particularly for list
with large amounts of traffic and/or those that have large text
postings to them.
I think the bug has been around for a number of releases and it would
explain why I had previously found shortening the archive period
improved matters.
This may or may not be part of the problem you reported. I have posted
a patch to correct this problem here which you might like to try if you
are feeling particularly brave:
http://www.openinfo.co.uk/mailman/patches/835332/index.html
and here:
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/ ?func=detail&aid=835332&group_id=103&atid=100103
Feedback either +ve or -ve would be appreciated if you try the patch.
Richard
On Friday, October 31, 2003, at 08:52 pm, Scott Lambert wrote:
On Fri, Oct 31, 2003 at 09:40:11AM -0500, Jon Carnes wrote:
On Fri, 2003-10-31 at 09:26, Jay West wrote:
I'm using Mailman 2.1.2 on FreeBSD v4.8-Release, built using the
port. MTA is sendmail 8.12.8p1Very frequently I will see the ArchRunner process using 99+ % of
cpu. I have searched the archives and found lots of messages about qrunners
using large percentages of cpu, but they all seem to talk about the fixes being
related to actual mail processing (sendmail), not archRunner. I am assuming
that if the problem was mail delivery or reception I would be seeing the
large cpu use on a different qrunner process. My issue is specific to the
archrunner process which I don't find much on in the archives/faq.Well you've pegged it. That was a bug in version 2.1.2 which is fixed in 2.1.3. The patch for 2.1.2 should still be available - you could probably patch your running system and just leave it at that (an
upgrade will bring the patch in anyway).I still see this problem with Mailman 2.1.3 for a high-volume list.
PID USERNAME PRI NICE SIZE RES STATE C TIME WCPU CPU
COMMAND 66428 mailman 64 0 168M 147M CPU1 0 376.7H 99.02% 99.02%
python2.3That's the archiver process. There are 1318 messages in the archive queue...
12:00:28 Fri Oct 31 # truss -p 66428 break(0x114f6000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x1302c000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x114f8000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x13030000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x114fa000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x13034000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x114fc000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x13038000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x114fe000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x1303c000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x11500000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x13040000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x11502000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x13044000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x11504000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x13048000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x11506000) = 0 (0x0) break(0x1304c000) = 0 (0x0)
Once I kill off the mailman queue runners and clean up the several lock files for this mailing list, it runs just fine and manages to empty the archive queue.
Two days worth of mailman cron jobs were still stuck in the process
list.Supposition: Maybe they were blocked by the list's lockfile?
So, it seems that the archRunner process went off the deep end
somewhere between two and three days ago.I have the htdig patches for 2.1.3 installed. Which might be
germane...-- Scott Lambert KC5MLE Unix
SysAdmin lambert@lambertfam.org
Richard Barrett http://www.openinfo.co.uk
John wrote...
Well you've pegged it. That was a bug in version 2.1.2 which is fixed in 2.1.3. The patch for 2.1.2 should still be available - you could probably patch your running system and just leave it at that (an upgrade will bring the patch in anyway).
I am having trouble finding that specific patch (for archrunner performance) in the patch area of the website. I see one patch specifically for archrunner, but the things that it fixes don't mention anything that sounds outwardly similar to my performance problem. Can someone confirm or deny if this is the correct patch? If not, maybe point me to the right one?
Thanks!
Jay West
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