Hi Mark and everyone,
I'm going to call this a bug, for lack of a better term.
I use Mailman version 2.1.11. It's hosted at my ISP and I have zero control over upgrading. Sometimes they do some custom builds but I doubt that's an issue here. I've had the same set of issues with previous versions.
I'm having some issues with: Privacy options: List of non-member addresses whose postings will be automatically discarded.
But it's about the list of expressions and not this specific box.
First of all, as a wish list, I would love love love if you made some changes to this feature. I know many folks do not filter for spam but I find it very useful. I can add email addresses to the spam list (you don't call it a spam list, but I do) from the moderation panel, which is awesome. The trouble is with editing.
Yea! You fixed this one already! The edit box shows 10 lines of addresses at a time. Now you've added a pull-down expand corner to the box, thank you!
To add a domain name to the list, you have to use a regular expression in this form:
^[^@]+@(.*.)?domain.com$ (or use net, info, etc). In other words, the only way to actually know that is to be a programmer or to ask on this list and save it for years, as I did.
Couldn't we just list the domains, in a separate box if required? After all, we just list the email addresses and obviously the software knows how to handle them. If we had a box for domains, couldn't the software be programmed to handle them?
- To add a username (or partial) to the list, you have to use a regular expression in this form:
^username That is way easier than domain names but still not something most of us just know. And it only works if it's the beginning of the email address. Could there be an easier way? I don't want to run the risk of list owners overdoing this, but some spam usernames are super obvious. Like freecredit or onlinepoker.
- It would be fantastic if we could add an entire domain name to the list of filters from the moderation panel. Right now it is a multi-step process to do this (and difficult in part because my spam list is so very long). Again, it would have to be done in a way where a listowner didn't overdo it (like discarding everything from yahoo.com or aol.com because some spammers use those addresses). But it is pretty frustrating to have a moderation page with, say, 6 spams in a row from the same domain name (something obvious) but each one uses a different username, and you know hundreds more are coming.
Okay, that's the wish list. Now on to the bug.
The moderation panel click feature will add ANY email address to the filter lists upon request. There is no check to see if it is a legit email address or not. But if it adds a bad address, it breaks the filter. The filter does still work, but it may not work for all the good addresses. I'm not sure if it works up to the bad address and then stops.
I have had this happen many times and there is no warning at all. The only way you know is if you try to edit the filter box list. Then when you save changes, it erases all of your changes and gives you an error message. The error message I got today said there was a bad email address and then it listed ALL of the addresses (and expressions) in my list. Very not useful.
I have too many to scan, though I did start from the bottom (the newer ones) and paged up a bit with no luck. The only way to debug this is to cut and paste the entire list to a text file then paste back a few addresses at a time and save the changes to see if it works. It took me about 20 mins. I discovered three bad addresses, not anywhere near each other either, though my guess is they're variations on the same spammer. nets.service@denmark nets.kort@service nets@service-kort
In the past, I've had addresses rejected for having certain symbols in the usernames. This is the first time I've seen missing domain name places. I do try to look for bad addresses when I add them to the discard list from the moderation panel, but I get a lot of spam and sometimes I miss them (not to mention that they're not always obvious like these are).
I would like to see the bad email error message come up when you ADD the email address. If it's done directly on the Privacy page then leave it exactly as it is now. But please add a check to the moderation page so you can't add a bad email address without at least being warned about it (better if it's rejected).
Also, when giving the error message, please say which address(es) is bad.
That's it for now. I may not have been posting here for a long time but I'm still a happy Mailman user.
Thanks! Cyndi
This must have come at a bad time because no one seemed to have seen it. I'm reposting.
Thanks, Cyndi
Begin forwarded message:
From: Cyndi Norwitz cyndi@norwitz.net Subject: [Mailman-Users] Privacy Options Filtering Date: April 29, 2013 1:54:26 PM PDT To: Mailman-Users@python.org
Hi Mark and everyone,
I'm going to call this a bug, for lack of a better term.
I use Mailman version 2.1.11. It's hosted at my ISP and I have zero control over upgrading. Sometimes they do some custom builds but I doubt that's an issue here. I've had the same set of issues with previous versions.
I'm having some issues with: Privacy options: List of non-member addresses whose postings will be automatically discarded.
But it's about the list of expressions and not this specific box.
First of all, as a wish list, I would love love love if you made some changes to this feature. I know many folks do not filter for spam but I find it very useful. I can add email addresses to the spam list (you don't call it a spam list, but I do) from the moderation panel, which is awesome. The trouble is with editing.
Yea! You fixed this one already! The edit box shows 10 lines of addresses at a time. Now you've added a pull-down expand corner to the box, thank you!
To add a domain name to the list, you have to use a regular expression in this form:
^[^@]+@(.*.)?domain.com$ (or use net, info, etc). In other words, the only way to actually know that is to be a programmer or to ask on this list and save it for years, as I did.
Couldn't we just list the domains, in a separate box if required? After all, we just list the email addresses and obviously the software knows how to handle them. If we had a box for domains, couldn't the software be programmed to handle them?
- To add a username (or partial) to the list, you have to use a regular expression in this form:
^username That is way easier than domain names but still not something most of us just know. And it only works if it's the beginning of the email address. Could there be an easier way? I don't want to run the risk of list owners overdoing this, but some spam usernames are super obvious. Like freecredit or onlinepoker.
- It would be fantastic if we could add an entire domain name to the list of filters from the moderation panel. Right now it is a multi-step process to do this (and difficult in part because my spam list is so very long). Again, it would have to be done in a way where a listowner didn't overdo it (like discarding everything from yahoo.com or aol.com because some spammers use those addresses). But it is pretty frustrating to have a moderation page with, say, 6 spams in a row from the same domain name (something obvious) but each one uses a different username, and you know hundreds more are coming.
Okay, that's the wish list. Now on to the bug.
The moderation panel click feature will add ANY email address to the filter lists upon request. There is no check to see if it is a legit email address or not. But if it adds a bad address, it breaks the filter. The filter does still work, but it may not work for all the good addresses. I'm not sure if it works up to the bad address and then stops.
I have had this happen many times and there is no warning at all. The only way you know is if you try to edit the filter box list. Then when you save changes, it erases all of your changes and gives you an error message. The error message I got today said there was a bad email address and then it listed ALL of the addresses (and expressions) in my list. Very not useful.
I have too many to scan, though I did start from the bottom (the newer ones) and paged up a bit with no luck. The only way to debug this is to cut and paste the entire list to a text file then paste back a few addresses at a time and save the changes to see if it works. It took me about 20 mins. I discovered three bad addresses, not anywhere near each other either, though my guess is they're variations on the same spammer. nets.service@denmark nets.kort@service nets@service-kort
In the past, I've had addresses rejected for having certain symbols in the usernames. This is the first time I've seen missing domain name places. I do try to look for bad addresses when I add them to the discard list from the moderation panel, but I get a lot of spam and sometimes I miss them (not to mention that they're not always obvious like these are).
I would like to see the bad email error message come up when you ADD the email address. If it's done directly on the Privacy page then leave it exactly as it is now. But please add a check to the moderation page so you can't add a bad email address without at least being warned about it (better if it's rejected).
Also, when giving the error message, please say which address(es) is bad.
That's it for now. I may not have been posting here for a long time but I'm still a happy Mailman user.
Thanks! Cyndi
On 06/03/2013 03:21 PM, Cyndi Norwitz wrote:
This must have come at a bad time because no one seemed to have seen it.
I saw it, left it in my inbox for later and never saw it again until now. Sorry and thanks for reposting.
First of all, as a wish list, I would love love love if you made some changes to this feature. I know many folks do not filter for spam but I find it very useful. I can add email addresses to the spam list (you don't call it a spam list, but I do) from the moderation panel, which is awesome. The trouble is with editing.
- Yea! You fixed this one already! The edit box shows 10 lines of addresses at a time. Now you've added a pull-down expand corner to the box, thank you!
Actually, that's your browser. We didn't change anything.
- To add a domain name to the list, you have to use a regular expression in this form:
^[^@]+@(.*.)?domain.com$ (or use net, info, etc). In other words, the only way to actually know that is to be a programmer or to ask on this list and save it for years, as I did.
Your regexp is a bit more complicated than it needs to be. This is equivalent.
^.*[@.]domain.com$
Also, I think there are lots of people who think of themselves as programmers who don't understand regexps, and people who have a working knowledge of regexps who don't think of themselves as programmers, but I understand your point.
Couldn't we just list the domains, in a separate box if required? After all, we just list the email addresses and obviously the software knows how to handle them. If we had a box for domains, couldn't the software be programmed to handle them?
This won't happen in MM 2.1 for the same reasons as those mentioned in the ongoing "Custom Pages" thread at http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/msg62744.html%3E
I don't know if this will be available in Postorius for MM 3. The Mailman-developers@python.org list would be the place to follow up.
- To add a username (or partial) to the list, you have to use a regular expression in this form:
^username That is way easier than domain names but still not something most of us just know. And it only works if it's the beginning of the email address.
And when is the username (local-part) not at the beginning of the email address? Or do you mean matching things like xxxfreecredit@...?
Could there be an easier way? I don't want to run the risk of list owners overdoing this, but some spam usernames are super obvious. Like freecredit or onlinepoker.
Learn simple regular expressions. There are lots of good references, and in their simpler forms, they're not much different from 'globs'.
Any 'simple' UI that attempted to translate say 'a string that matches a part of the email address to the left of the @' into the corresponding match would probably be unwieldy with too many options and would still not have the power of simple regular expressions.
- It would be fantastic if we could add an entire domain name to the list of filters from the moderation panel. Right now it is a multi-step process to do this (and difficult in part because my spam list is so very long). Again, it would have to be done in a way where a listowner didn't overdo it (like discarding everything from yahoo.com or aol.com because some spammers use those addresses). But it is pretty frustrating to have a moderation page with, say, 6 spams in a row from the same domain name (something obvious) but each one uses a different username, and you know hundreds more are coming.
See the last part of the answer to number 2.
Okay, that's the wish list. Now on to the bug.
The moderation panel click feature will add ANY email address to the filter lists upon request. There is no check to see if it is a legit email address or not. But if it adds a bad address, it breaks the filter. The filter does still work, but it may not work for all the good addresses. I'm not sure if it works up to the bad address and then stops.
OK. This is a bug. I have entered it in the tracker at https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1187201 and I will fix it, but I'm not yet sure how. And the filter does continue to work for all addresses, even the bad ones.
I have had this happen many times and there is no warning at all. The only way you know is if you try to edit the filter box list. Then when you save changes, it erases all of your changes and gives you an error message. The error message I got today said there was a bad email address and then it listed ALL of the addresses (and expressions) in my list. Very not useful.
I have too many to scan, though I did start from the bottom (the newer ones) and paged up a bit with no luck. The only way to debug this is to cut and paste the entire list to a text file then paste back a few addresses at a time and save the changes to see if it works. It took me about 20 mins. I discovered three bad addresses, not anywhere near each other either, though my guess is they're variations on the same spammer. nets.service@denmark nets.kort@service nets@service-kort
The check is a very simple one, and it only validates the form of the address. It doesn't in any way check if the address exists, only if it contains invalid characters or as in the case of these three, doesn't have at least one dot (.) in the domain part.
In the past, I've had addresses rejected for having certain symbols in the usernames. This is the first time I've seen missing domain name places. I do try to look for bad addresses when I add them to the discard list from the moderation panel, but I get a lot of spam and sometimes I miss them (not to mention that they're not always obvious like these are).
I would like to see the bad email error message come up when you ADD the email address. If it's done directly on the Privacy page then leave it exactly as it is now. But please add a check to the moderation page so you can't add a bad email address without at least being warned about it (better if it's rejected).
That's my inclination for the fix. I.e. don't add the address to the filter and say why, but what else should or shouldn't be done. E.g. suppose this is one address out of 5 to be added from 5 posts. Do we abort the whole transaction, do everything else anyway or something in between.
Also, when giving the error message, please say which address(es) is bad.
I'll see if that can be done with only minor impact, although if the bug is fixed, there should be no bad addresses in the existing list, so it's less of a problem.
That's it for now. I may not have been posting here for a long time but I'm still a happy Mailman user.
Glad to hear it.
Mark Sapiro writes:
On 06/03/2013 03:21 PM, Cyndi Norwitz wrote:
Could there be an easier way? I don't want to run the risk of list owners overdoing this, but some spam usernames are super obvious. Like freecredit or onlinepoker.
Learn simple regular expressions. There are lots of good references, and in their simpler forms, they're not much different from 'globs'.
Any 'simple' UI that attempted to translate say 'a string that matches a part of the email address to the left of the @' into the corresponding match would probably be unwieldy with too many options and would still not have the power of simple regular expressions.
+1. There could be an easier way, but I don't know what it is. The only real alternative would be to optionally allow globs, but that would require additional syntax in a single box or an extra box. Two boxes strikes me as an attractive nuisance, and it would catch some power users, too.
The moderation panel click feature will add ANY email address to the filter lists upon request. There is no check to see if it is a legit email address or not. But if it adds a bad address, it breaks the filter. The filter does still work, but it may not work for all the good addresses. I'm not sure if it works up to the bad address and then stops.
Cyndi: I don't understand what you mean by "breaks", especially given Mark saying it works. Mark doesn't miss much, but there's always a first time. :-)
OK. This is a bug. I have entered it in the tracker at https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1187201 and I will fix it, but I'm not yet sure how. And the filter does continue to work for all addresses, even the bad ones.
Well, is it a bug? It seems to me that depends on whether the setting is REJECT (it's a bug, although only wasting the MTA's time AFAICS) or DISCARD (not a bug). If it's DISCARD, surely the admin intends to nuke that spammer in the future, too? I don't know if this argument applies to evil characters in the address but it should be true for invalid domains.
I have had this happen many times and there is no warning at all. The only way you know is if you try to edit the filter box list. Then when you save changes, it erases all of your changes and gives you an error message. The error message I got today said there was a bad email address and then it listed ALL of the addresses (and expressions) in my list. Very not useful.
This is Mailman's way of letting you know that you're abusing the system. ;-) Yes, I know you don't think you have a choice. :-( I don't think it would be terribly hard for us to do better though; see below.
I would like to see the bad email error message come up when you ADD the email address. If it's done directly on the Privacy page then leave it exactly as it is now. But please add a check to the moderation page so you can't add a bad email address without at least being warned about it (better if it's rejected).
That's my inclination for the fix. I.e. don't add the address to the filter and say why, but what else should or shouldn't be done. E.g. suppose this is one address out of 5 to be added from 5 posts. Do we abort the whole transaction, do everything else anyway or something in between.
I would say Mailman should (1) add all the valid addresses, (2) give an error message specifying any addresses Mailman rejected, followed (3, in the same page) by a confirmation message saying which addresses were added. Also, it might be useful to *prepend* the new addresses to the list or regexp.
On 06/04/2013 01:25 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
OK. This is a bug. I have entered it in the tracker at https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1187201 and I will fix it, but I'm not yet sure how. And the filter does continue to work for all addresses, even the bad ones.
Well, is it a bug? It seems to me that depends on whether the setting is REJECT (it's a bug, although only wasting the MTA's time AFAICS) or DISCARD (not a bug). If it's DISCARD, surely the admin intends to nuke that spammer in the future, too? I don't know if this argument applies to evil characters in the address but it should be true for invalid domains.
The bug is only that if you select "Add <invalid address> to one of these sender filters:" Mailman will add the address to one of the *_these_nonmembers filters and later you will be unable to edit that filter through the web UI unless and until you remove the invalid address.
That's my inclination for the fix. I.e. don't add the address to the filter and say why, but what else should or shouldn't be done. E.g. suppose this is one address out of 5 to be added from 5 posts. Do we abort the whole transaction, do everything else anyway or something in between.
I would say Mailman should (1) add all the valid addresses, (2) give an error message specifying any addresses Mailman rejected, followed (3, in the same page) by a confirmation message saying which addresses were added. Also, it might be useful to *prepend* the new addresses to the list or regexp.
I've started to implement (1) and (2). (3) may or may not be tricky, but I'll see.
Mark Sapiro writes:
The bug is only that if you select "Add <invalid address> to one of these sender filters:" Mailman will add the address to one of the *_these_nonmembers filters and later you will be unable to edit that filter through the web UI unless and until you remove the invalid address.
Ah, OK. I would say that the only things it ever makes sense to do with an invalid address is to HOLD (and inform the user, if known to the moderator, otherwise discard), or DISCARD. So it gets complex if you try to DTRT (IMO, suggest to the admin they should DISCARD these addresses). It's probably not worth it doing so much to try to fix it, especially in Mailman 2.
On Jun 3, 2013, at 5:00 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
On 06/03/2013 03:21 PM, Cyndi Norwitz wrote:
This must have come at a bad time because no one seemed to have seen it.
I saw it, left it in my inbox for later and never saw it again until now. Sorry and thanks for reposting.
Thanks for your reply. I'm sorry I didn't see it sooner. I just now checked my mailbox where I filter this list.
- To add a domain name to the list, you have to use a regular expression in this form:
^[^@]+@(.*.)?domain.com$ (or use net, info, etc). In other words, the only way to actually know that is to be a programmer or to ask on this list and save it for years, as I did.
Your regexp is a bit more complicated than it needs to be.
LOL!
Well maybe it is but YOU are the one who told me to use it. Years ago. (or possibly someone else on a thread that you contributed to as well)
This is equivalent.
^.*[@.]domain.com$
Since I just cut and paste the relevant parts, I'm not sure it matters.
Couldn't we just list the domains, in a separate box if required? After all, we just list the email addresses and obviously the software knows how to handle them. If we had a box for domains, couldn't the software be programmed to handle them?
This won't happen in MM 2.1 for the same reasons as those mentioned in the ongoing "Custom Pages" thread at http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/msg62744.html%3E
Okay, so if I understand the thread… you're saying what might look like a simple change to me is actually extremely complex, in part because of the necessity for translation into several dozen languages. And that MM is about to change to a completely new version so you are (understandably) unwilling to make non-urgent changes to the current version. That sounds reasonable.
I don't know if this will be available in Postorius for MM 3. The Mailman-developers@python.org list would be the place to follow up.
Nodding.
- To add a username (or partial) to the list, you have to use a regular expression in this form:
^username That is way easier than domain names but still not something most of us just know. And it only works if it's the beginning of the email address.
And when is the username (local-part) not at the beginning of the email address? Or do you mean matching things like xxxfreecredit@…?
Yes. Also domain names do things like …@xxxfreecredit.com (or net or org or ru or 100 other choices). In other words, the extra characters can be at the beginning of the username, at the beginning of the domain name, or in the domain location. Of course the extra characters can all be in the middle or end of the string too.
Could there be an easier way? I don't want to run the risk of list owners overdoing this, but some spam usernames are super obvious. Like freecredit or onlinepoker.
Learn simple regular expressions. There are lots of good references, and in their simpler forms, they're not much different from 'globs'.
So what you're saying that what I want here is already available, I just need to learn how to do it?
Any 'simple' UI that attempted to translate say 'a string that matches a part of the email address to the left of the @' into the corresponding match would probably be unwieldy with too many options and would still not have the power of simple regular expressions.
Okay.
- It would be fantastic if we could add an entire domain name to the list of filters from the moderation panel. Right now it is a multi-step process to do this (and difficult in part because my spam list is so very long). Again, it would have to be done in a way where a listowner didn't overdo it (like discarding everything from yahoo.com or aol.com because some spammers use those addresses). But it is pretty frustrating to have a moderation page with, say, 6 spams in a row from the same domain name (something obvious) but each one uses a different username, and you know hundreds more are coming.
See the last part of the answer to number 2.
Ahhh…I know I can do it if I edit the privacy page directly. What I want is for these to be lumped together on the moderation page. So I don't have to go to the admin page, go to privacy, go to the proper place, and hand edit in a new domain name. Because I can't guess what phrase spammers are going to use next for their domain name variations.
Okay, that's the wish list. Now on to the bug.
The moderation panel click feature will add ANY email address to the filter lists upon request. There is no check to see if it is a legit email address or not. But if it adds a bad address, it breaks the filter. The filter does still work, but it may not work for all the good addresses. I'm not sure if it works up to the bad address and then stops.
OK. This is a bug. I have entered it in the tracker at https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/1187201 and I will fix it, but I'm not yet sure how. And the filter does continue to work for all addresses, even the bad ones.
Wonderful, thanks.
That's my inclination for the fix. I.e. don't add the address to the filter and say why, but what else should or shouldn't be done. E.g. suppose this is one address out of 5 to be added from 5 posts. Do we abort the whole transaction, do everything else anyway or something in between.
Ideally it would accept the good addresses and reject the bad one and say which address was rejected and why. But I would accept a total rejection as a solution if the former one was too much of a PITA to implement. Even though it might mean repeating a couple minutes worth of work. One note: the page allows you to discard an attempted post without putting the return address into a filter. If I don't check a filter button when I discard a message, the message will simply disappear when i save the changes. My concern is that I might lose the opportunity to add good addresses to the filter if the entire set is rejected. I typically have 20-30 spam posts when I go through moderation (once a week or so since almost everyone on the mailing list is unmoderated (only newbies and a couple select individuals are on moderation)).
Another in-between solution might be to reject the "save changes" because there is an error but not partially process the messages or reset the button settings. Ideally it would say what the error was. This might be harder to program than the other ways, I don't really know. My preference would be not to lose my work, however that manifests itself. But whatever it takes to keep bad addresses out of the filter, that's the most important part.
Also, when giving the error message, please say which address(es) is bad.
I'll see if that can be done with only minor impact, although if the bug is fixed, there should be no bad addresses in the existing list, so it's less of a problem.
Nodding.
That's it for now. I may not have been posting here for a long time but I'm still a happy Mailman user.
Glad to hear it.
:-)
I'm looking forward to the changes and to Version 3. Lord only knows when I'll get to see any of it since, as you might recall, I don't run Mailman myself, I have it through my ISP. And they only upgrade when a new version is out of beta (and they think about it).
Thanks for all your help and for your excellent program! Cyndi
On 06/30/2013 12:51 PM, Cyndi Norwitz wrote:
On Jun 3, 2013, at 5:00 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
On 06/03/2013 03:21 PM, Cyndi Norwitz wrote:
- To add a domain name to the list, you have to use a regular expression in this form:
^[^@]+@(.*.)?domain.com$ (or use net, info, etc). In other words, the only way to actually know that is to be a programmer or to ask on this list and save it for years, as I did.
Your regexp is a bit more complicated than it needs to be.
LOL!
Well maybe it is but YOU are the one who told me to use it. Years ago. (or possibly someone else on a thread that you contributed to as well)
I'm sure I did, but I learn things over time too.
This is equivalent.
^.*[@.]domain.com$
Since I just cut and paste the relevant parts, I'm not sure it matters.
It matters in that people looking at the first form say "this is so complicated I'll never understand it" whereas they can look at the second and say "Oh yeah, I get that"
That's my inclination for the fix. I.e. don't add the address to the filter and say why, but what else should or shouldn't be done. E.g. suppose this is one address out of 5 to be added from 5 posts. Do we abort the whole transaction, do everything else anyway or something in between.
Ideally it would accept the good addresses and reject the bad one and say which address was rejected and why. But I would accept a total rejection as a solution if the former one was too much of a PITA to implement. Even though it might mean repeating a couple minutes worth of work. One note: the page allows you to discard an attempted post without putting the return address into a filter. If I don't check a filter button when I discard a message, the message will simply disappear when i save the changes. My concern is that I might lose the opportunity to add good addresses to the filter if the entire set is rejected. I typically have 20-30 spam posts when I go through moderation (once a week or so since almost everyone on the mailing list is unmoderated (only newbies and a couple select individuals are on moderation)).
Another in-between solution might be to reject the "save changes" because there is an error but not partially process the messages or reset the button settings. Ideally it would say what the error was. This might be harder to program than the other ways, I don't really know. My preference would be not to lose my work, however that manifests itself. But whatever it takes to keep bad addresses out of the filter, that's the most important part.
The bug report is at https://launchpad.net/bugs/1187201. The actual commited fix is at http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mailman-coders/mailman/2.1/revision/1390.
I believe the fix addresses all your concerns. What it does is run each address to be added to a *_these_nonmembers filter or the ban_list through Mailman's ValidateEmail() function (a check on form, not actual deliverability; the same check the web UI uses) and it simply reports each bad address as bad and does everything as though the bad addresses weren't selected to be added to a filter or the ban_list.
The reporting can report the same address multiple times as it is reported for each checked box that references it.
participants (3)
-
Cyndi Norwitz -
Mark Sapiro -
Stephen J. Turnbull