Where's the installation directions / source, etc, please?
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Hi All,
I used to use plain-ole mailman, WAY back in the '90s, BEFORE mailman2 and LONG before mailman3... And I sure wish mailman2 had been done by people who had a sense for the challenges for normal non-developer system managers to deal with the software they actually developed. I'm sure it's fine if you're already a Django programmer and use "containers" all the time, but I'm not a Django fanboy, don't ever care to be, and think the idea of containers is inappropriate technology for a hell of a lot of use-cases, especially a small, self-run, no-budget installation.
But maybe the worst is that the developers of that stuff can't be bothered to create a wrapper so you've got ONE consistent way to do things from the command line?! WTF?! What the he... OK, no reason to get into a rant. Ya know, I tried it, gave it a fair attempt, and given my experience, if I wrote what I think of it here, I might get banned!
So, I'm done with it and want to go back to the old stuff. I'll happily build from source, etc. But my simplistic web searches haven't returned results and I'm afraid I didn't keep great records about it back when since it was just a part of my Fedora package system!
So, any pointers for this long-in-the-tooth Fedora Sys Admin?
Thanks folks, Richard
(from somewhere in San Franciso's east bay area...)
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/56f108518d7ee2544412cc80978e3182.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
On 7/17/23 10:54, Richard@KarmannGhia.org wrote:
I think you are referring to Mailman 3, not Mailman 2.
If you want to install Mailman 2.1 from source, see <https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-announce@python.org/thread/D54...> for various download locations. You can find the installation manual at <https://www.list.org/mailman-install/index.html>.
You can also find tarballs for releases back to 1.0 at <https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mailman/>.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/1351fb866e8d35cad87c69e8b4c378bd.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
Hi,
I feel the same way, hence still running Mailman2 (on RHEL8). It is simple and low CPU hit, however Red Hat stops it support in May 2024.
Containers are really useful where done well but I tried 2 or times to get mailman3 going on RHEL9 with podman and even docker and failed.
I think Debian12 does mailman3? worth a go if so. In my case I am not allowed to run an unsupported OS and app.
regards
Steven
From: Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> Sent: Tuesday, 18 July 2023 6:57 am To: mailman-users@python.org <mailman-users@python.org> Subject: [Mailman-Users] Re: Where's the installation directions / source, etc, please?
On 7/17/23 10:54, Richard@KarmannGhia.org wrote:
I think you are referring to Mailman 3, not Mailman 2.
If you want to install Mailman 2.1 from source, see <https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmail.python.org%2Farchives%2Flist%2Fmailman-announce%40python.org%2Fthread%2FD54X2LXETPMVP5KZNM2WP6Z6UOPJXSVD%2F&data=05%7C01%7Csteven.jones%40vuw.ac.nz%7Cbb812fd72e0143a85ade08db86f7e174%7Ccfe63e236951427e8683bb84dcf1d20c%7C0%7C0%7C638252171430413839%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=P2cl20IOycSfMs8I7HqQbhMZWxrZe734MsNQNwnL0QA%3D&reserved=0<https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-announce@python.org/thread/D54X2LXETPMVP5KZNM2WP6Z6UOPJXSVD/>> for various download locations. You can find the installation manual at <https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.list.org%2Fmailman-install%2Findex.html&data=05%7C01%7Csteven.jones%40vuw.ac.nz%7Cbb812fd72e0143a85ade08db86f7e174%7Ccfe63e236951427e8683bb84dcf1d20c%7C0%7C0%7C638252171430413839%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=XszQZSnplhtIBsSH%2FLiPyVgsRwlNjDp546%2BEI%2B8z54w%3D&reserved=0<https://www.list.org/mailman-install/index.html>>.
You can also find tarballs for releases back to 1.0 at <https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fftp.gnu.org%2Fgnu%2Fmailman%2F&data=05%7C01%7Csteven.jones%40vuw.ac.nz%7Cbb812fd72e0143a85ade08db86f7e174%7Ccfe63e236951427e8683bb84dcf1d20c%7C0%7C0%7C638252171430413839%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=IZ3ZrHx56%2FmSgSKMJ9kcvBk4iJQs0mVCWOrkVjduvTs%3D&reserved=0<https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mailman/>>.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
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On 2023-07-17 4:36 PM, Steven Jones wrote:
IIRC the main problem with running mailman2 in a container is the
aliases file that needs to execute mailman commands. I think it should
probably work by replacing mailman commands in there with docker exec ...
I'm not running unix servers anymore and have nowhere to give that a try myself. I'm sure there be tentacles there that I am not thinking of.
Dima
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Steven Jones writes:
That's fine with us. Mailman 2 is pretty bulletproof and low- maintenance from our point of view too.
Not sure what containers have to do with anything, to be honest. In any case, we don't really support containers AIUI. Abhilash provides multiple containers in a configuration that's convenient for him to distribute, but the container environment isn't something we support, nor can we. A lot of people have difficulty configuring the network with multiple containers.
I would recommend configuring everything (except perhaps the database) in a single "host" (hardware, VM, or container), unless you're willing to take on all that complexity.
I think Debian12 does mailman3? worth a go if so. In my case I am not allowed to run an unsupported OS and app.
Current Debian is pretty close to most recent release (maybe at this point it is the most recent release). But as you say, if you need a supported OS, you're probably going to end up with a pretty old version of Mailman.
Steve
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On 7/19/2023 1:46 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
As for the last paragraph - When I was a Mailman administrator some years ago on an Ubuntu system, I was told that I had to install Mailman from a package. I looked at the Debian package, and I saw patches that were undocumented, so I had no idea what they did. And Debian, in one patch, deleted a library that is needed in some situations. And I wanted to get support from Mark and this list, instead of from Debian. So, I figured out how to create a package from the Mailman source. This was on an older version of Mailman, but I assume that my technique should work with the latest Mailman 2 source. Contact me personally for details. It is not complicated.
--Barry Finkel
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Barry S. Finkel writes:
I second this method if you're not interested in keeping the source tree around. It keeps your system tidy, and I'm pretty sure most distros (specifically Debian does) support a configuration to look in a local package archive for packages before going out to the main distro repos. So do it each time you upgrade and you always have a way to back out to the previous working system.
Steve
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I'm trying to install 2.1.39 now, but am having an issue with verifying the tarball.
I downloaded from: https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mailman/
...these files:
mailman-2.1.39.tgz mailman-2.1.39.tgz.sig
When I execute the appropriate command:
$ gpg --verify mailman-2.1.39.tgz.sig mailman-2.1.39.tgz gpg: Signature made Mon 13 Dec 2021 12:38:07 PM PST gpg: using DSA key C638CAEF0AC21563736B5A22555B975E953B8693 gpg: Can't check signature: No public key
Advice?
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On 7/17/23 16:22, Richard@KarmannGhia.org wrote:
Try
gpg --receive-keys 953B8693
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
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Mark Sapiro wrote:
gpg --receive-keys 953B8693
I never needed that key because I use the Debian Package, but there seems to be something wrong with the key (or the keyserver keys.openpgp.org):
$ gpg --receive-keys 953B8693 gpg: keyserver receive failed: No data
And if I try the long key-ID (which is generally recommended):
$ gpg --receive-keys 555B975E953B8693 gpg: key 555B975E953B8693: new key but contains no user ID - skipped gpg: Total number processed: 1 gpg: w/o user IDs: 1
-- \ J. Dollinger FAW/n Ulm |zeitnot@irc| http://www.home.pages.de/~zeitnot/ \ "What're quantum mechanics?" -- "I don't know. People who / \ repair quantums, I suppose." (Terry Pratchett, Eric) /
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On 7/18/23 06:44, Juergen Dollinger wrote:
I was able to retrieve my key from keys.openpgp.org using the full fingerprint 'C638CAEF0AC21563736B5A22555B975E953B8693'.
In any case, I just uploaded an updated key to that server.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/56f108518d7ee2544412cc80978e3182.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
On 7/17/23 10:54, Richard@KarmannGhia.org wrote:
I think you are referring to Mailman 3, not Mailman 2.
If you want to install Mailman 2.1 from source, see <https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-announce@python.org/thread/D54...> for various download locations. You can find the installation manual at <https://www.list.org/mailman-install/index.html>.
You can also find tarballs for releases back to 1.0 at <https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mailman/>.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/1351fb866e8d35cad87c69e8b4c378bd.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
Hi,
I feel the same way, hence still running Mailman2 (on RHEL8). It is simple and low CPU hit, however Red Hat stops it support in May 2024.
Containers are really useful where done well but I tried 2 or times to get mailman3 going on RHEL9 with podman and even docker and failed.
I think Debian12 does mailman3? worth a go if so. In my case I am not allowed to run an unsupported OS and app.
regards
Steven
From: Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> Sent: Tuesday, 18 July 2023 6:57 am To: mailman-users@python.org <mailman-users@python.org> Subject: [Mailman-Users] Re: Where's the installation directions / source, etc, please?
On 7/17/23 10:54, Richard@KarmannGhia.org wrote:
I think you are referring to Mailman 3, not Mailman 2.
If you want to install Mailman 2.1 from source, see <https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmail.python.org%2Farchives%2Flist%2Fmailman-announce%40python.org%2Fthread%2FD54X2LXETPMVP5KZNM2WP6Z6UOPJXSVD%2F&data=05%7C01%7Csteven.jones%40vuw.ac.nz%7Cbb812fd72e0143a85ade08db86f7e174%7Ccfe63e236951427e8683bb84dcf1d20c%7C0%7C0%7C638252171430413839%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=P2cl20IOycSfMs8I7HqQbhMZWxrZe734MsNQNwnL0QA%3D&reserved=0<https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-announce@python.org/thread/D54X2LXETPMVP5KZNM2WP6Z6UOPJXSVD/>> for various download locations. You can find the installation manual at <https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.list.org%2Fmailman-install%2Findex.html&data=05%7C01%7Csteven.jones%40vuw.ac.nz%7Cbb812fd72e0143a85ade08db86f7e174%7Ccfe63e236951427e8683bb84dcf1d20c%7C0%7C0%7C638252171430413839%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=XszQZSnplhtIBsSH%2FLiPyVgsRwlNjDp546%2BEI%2B8z54w%3D&reserved=0<https://www.list.org/mailman-install/index.html>>.
You can also find tarballs for releases back to 1.0 at <https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fftp.gnu.org%2Fgnu%2Fmailman%2F&data=05%7C01%7Csteven.jones%40vuw.ac.nz%7Cbb812fd72e0143a85ade08db86f7e174%7Ccfe63e236951427e8683bb84dcf1d20c%7C0%7C0%7C638252171430413839%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=IZ3ZrHx56%2FmSgSKMJ9kcvBk4iJQs0mVCWOrkVjduvTs%3D&reserved=0<https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mailman/>>.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
Mailman-Users mailing list -- mailman-users@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to mailman-users-leave@python.org https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmail.python.org%2Fmailman3%2Flists%2Fmailman-users.python.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Csteven.jones%40vuw.ac.nz%7Cbb812fd72e0143a85ade08db86f7e174%7Ccfe63e236951427e8683bb84dcf1d20c%7C0%7C0%7C638252171430413839%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=HvAhaXmvtfa%2FxgXY6xa4WeVo39of1bkL%2FKqindyShHY%3D&reserved=0<https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-users.python.org/> Mailman FAQ: https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwiki.list.org%2Fx%2FAgA3&data=05%7C01%7Csteven.jones%40vuw.ac.nz%7Cbb812fd72e0143a85ade08db86f7e174%7Ccfe63e236951427e8683bb84dcf1d20c%7C0%7C0%7C638252171430413839%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Vmy0PZz8SJXQT7zROlFSVbZx1SnzJVR4WETlIR1tEOg%3D&reserved=0<http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3> Security Policy: https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwiki.list.org%2Fx%2FQIA9&data=05%7C01%7Csteven.jones%40vuw.ac.nz%7Cbb812fd72e0143a85ade08db86f7e174%7Ccfe63e236951427e8683bb84dcf1d20c%7C0%7C0%7C638252171430413839%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=5MFkUUuWYqlKoIyOq39zJ225o5RRz0SHvqbP%2F2kcF68%3D&reserved=0<http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9> Searchable Archives: https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fmailman-users%40python.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Csteven.jones%40vuw.ac.nz%7Cbb812fd72e0143a85ade08db86f7e174%7Ccfe63e236951427e8683bb84dcf1d20c%7C0%7C0%7C638252171430413839%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Xqi9iSdzOLLDnKlz8ofGmZlEZo4pzP0NQ1CKajQ1xAc%3D&reserved=0<https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/> https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmail.python.org%2Farchives%2Flist%2Fmailman-users%40python.org%2F&data=05%7C01%7Csteven.jones%40vuw.ac.nz%7Cbb812fd72e0143a85ade08db86f7e174%7Ccfe63e236951427e8683bb84dcf1d20c%7C0%7C0%7C638252171430413839%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=MondAZiuuy%2Fy1RGNeAj3OhzJ0b7DzJibHcXbEvOJLlg%3D&reserved=0<https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/> Member address: steven.jones@vuw.ac.nz
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On 2023-07-17 4:36 PM, Steven Jones wrote:
IIRC the main problem with running mailman2 in a container is the
aliases file that needs to execute mailman commands. I think it should
probably work by replacing mailman commands in there with docker exec ...
I'm not running unix servers anymore and have nowhere to give that a try myself. I'm sure there be tentacles there that I am not thinking of.
Dima
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/e2371bef92eb40cd7c586e9f2cc75cd8.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
Steven Jones writes:
That's fine with us. Mailman 2 is pretty bulletproof and low- maintenance from our point of view too.
Not sure what containers have to do with anything, to be honest. In any case, we don't really support containers AIUI. Abhilash provides multiple containers in a configuration that's convenient for him to distribute, but the container environment isn't something we support, nor can we. A lot of people have difficulty configuring the network with multiple containers.
I would recommend configuring everything (except perhaps the database) in a single "host" (hardware, VM, or container), unless you're willing to take on all that complexity.
I think Debian12 does mailman3? worth a go if so. In my case I am not allowed to run an unsupported OS and app.
Current Debian is pretty close to most recent release (maybe at this point it is the most recent release). But as you say, if you need a supported OS, you're probably going to end up with a pretty old version of Mailman.
Steve
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/0d67da306b00861e781dbdafd331dfea.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
On 7/19/2023 1:46 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
As for the last paragraph - When I was a Mailman administrator some years ago on an Ubuntu system, I was told that I had to install Mailman from a package. I looked at the Debian package, and I saw patches that were undocumented, so I had no idea what they did. And Debian, in one patch, deleted a library that is needed in some situations. And I wanted to get support from Mark and this list, instead of from Debian. So, I figured out how to create a package from the Mailman source. This was on an older version of Mailman, but I assume that my technique should work with the latest Mailman 2 source. Contact me personally for details. It is not complicated.
--Barry Finkel
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/e2371bef92eb40cd7c586e9f2cc75cd8.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
Barry S. Finkel writes:
I second this method if you're not interested in keeping the source tree around. It keeps your system tidy, and I'm pretty sure most distros (specifically Debian does) support a configuration to look in a local package archive for packages before going out to the main distro repos. So do it each time you upgrade and you always have a way to back out to the previous working system.
Steve
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/9edcb608a75e597938e3901ba0d6fbbc.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
I'm trying to install 2.1.39 now, but am having an issue with verifying the tarball.
I downloaded from: https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mailman/
...these files:
mailman-2.1.39.tgz mailman-2.1.39.tgz.sig
When I execute the appropriate command:
$ gpg --verify mailman-2.1.39.tgz.sig mailman-2.1.39.tgz gpg: Signature made Mon 13 Dec 2021 12:38:07 PM PST gpg: using DSA key C638CAEF0AC21563736B5A22555B975E953B8693 gpg: Can't check signature: No public key
Advice?
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/56f108518d7ee2544412cc80978e3182.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
On 7/17/23 16:22, Richard@KarmannGhia.org wrote:
Try
gpg --receive-keys 953B8693
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/22a09d8e743b6c5ea3a340d7f7f3eaf1.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
Mark Sapiro wrote:
gpg --receive-keys 953B8693
I never needed that key because I use the Debian Package, but there seems to be something wrong with the key (or the keyserver keys.openpgp.org):
$ gpg --receive-keys 953B8693 gpg: keyserver receive failed: No data
And if I try the long key-ID (which is generally recommended):
$ gpg --receive-keys 555B975E953B8693 gpg: key 555B975E953B8693: new key but contains no user ID - skipped gpg: Total number processed: 1 gpg: w/o user IDs: 1
-- \ J. Dollinger FAW/n Ulm |zeitnot@irc| http://www.home.pages.de/~zeitnot/ \ "What're quantum mechanics?" -- "I don't know. People who / \ repair quantums, I suppose." (Terry Pratchett, Eric) /
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/56f108518d7ee2544412cc80978e3182.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
On 7/18/23 06:44, Juergen Dollinger wrote:
I was able to retrieve my key from keys.openpgp.org using the full fingerprint 'C638CAEF0AC21563736B5A22555B975E953B8693'.
In any case, I just uploaded an updated key to that server.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
participants (7)
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Barry S. Finkel
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dmitri maziuk
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Juergen Dollinger
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Mark Sapiro
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Richard@KarmannGhia.org
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Stephen J. Turnbull
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Steven Jones