from_is_list Wrap Message: what does that look like?
If I use from_is_list "Wrap Message," what will users see? The help page says "This is effectively a one message MIME format digest." Does that mean that the original message is going to show up as an attachment in some mail readers?
What about in Digests? I have to imagine that wrapping is unnecessary on a digest, so the messages would just look like any other message. Is that accurate?
I'm trying to advise my list moderators on choosing between "Wrap Message" and "Reject." And considering whether to give them a choice. "Reject" is clear and understandable, but will annoy some of our users, none (approximately) of whom will understand at first why we're doing it. But "Wrap Message" may confuse everybody else, if those messages look funny or take an extra step to read.
Anybody who has experience with how list subscribers respond to these changes, please let me know!
Thanks, Matt
On 01/11/2017 10:22 AM, Matt Morgan wrote:
Yes.
Yes. DMARC mitigations are not applied to messages in digests or archives.
Yes, that's the dilemma. Note that from_is_list does not have a 'reject' option. That applies only to dmarc_moderation_action, and setting it to 'reject' is only appropriate in limited situations when it is possible and appropriate to force list members to not post from Yahoo, AOL or other domains that publish DMARC p=reject or p=quarantine. You are basically punishing users based on the policy of their ESPs which they can control only by switching providers. For some lists in some situations, this can be appropriate, but in general, it is not. And your users won't understand and if they complain to Yahoo, AOL, etc., they will be lied to and told the list is the problem.
For most lists, dmarc_moderation_action = Munge From turns out to be the best (or least harmful/disruptive) choice. Munge From does not change the MIME structure and with compliant mail readers at least does not change the results of 'reply', 'reply all' and 'reply list'.
The big negative of Munge From is the message's From: header no longer contains the address of the author of the message so the message is no longer strictly compliant with RFCs 822, 2822 and 5322.
Anybody who has experience with how list subscribers respond to these changes, please let me know!
List subscribers with iThings do not like Wrap Message. At least some other mobile clients also have issues with this format. As I said, Munge From, despite it's non-compliance, is usually the better option.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 2:09 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> wrote:
Yes, that's the dilemma. Note that from_is_list does not have a 'reject' option.
Right, thanks. I was misremembering from when I looked at this last month.
For most lists, dmarc_moderation_action = Munge From turns out to be the best (or least harmful/disruptive) choice.
...
Isn't it also an issue that the message doesn't say who it's from, potentially, or how to contact the sender? My biggest list has a lot of job postings, conference announcements, etc.--things where you don't necessarily mention yourself in what you send in (even if you may include other contact info). In that case won't we risk confusing all the readers of the list? It'll look like the list itself (or rather its sponsoring organization) is promoting the job announcement.
Or, I would guess on any list, someone will often say "contact me for more info" with the assumption that their email address is up above. Am I misunderstanding Munge From?
List subscribers with iThings do not like Wrap Message. At least some other mobile clients also have issues with this format.
Thanks, that's really good to know.
On 01/11/2017 02:42 PM, Matt Morgan wrote:
That should not be the case. The original From: is always put in Reply-To: or in some cases Cc: with the intent that a compliant MUAs 'reply' and 'reply all' function will address the reply the same whether or not the message is Munged. Also, the sender's display name in the original From: is preserved. In a simple case with no Reply-To: munging, a message
From: Joe Poster <joe@example.com>
will be sent from the list with
From: Joe Poster via AList <alist@example.net> Reply-To: Joe Poster <joe@example.com>
Yes. I think so. This is what the code says
We think all Mailman versions 2.1.19 and later do a good job of meeting those goals.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
On 01/11/2017 10:22 AM, Matt Morgan wrote:
Yes.
Yes. DMARC mitigations are not applied to messages in digests or archives.
Yes, that's the dilemma. Note that from_is_list does not have a 'reject' option. That applies only to dmarc_moderation_action, and setting it to 'reject' is only appropriate in limited situations when it is possible and appropriate to force list members to not post from Yahoo, AOL or other domains that publish DMARC p=reject or p=quarantine. You are basically punishing users based on the policy of their ESPs which they can control only by switching providers. For some lists in some situations, this can be appropriate, but in general, it is not. And your users won't understand and if they complain to Yahoo, AOL, etc., they will be lied to and told the list is the problem.
For most lists, dmarc_moderation_action = Munge From turns out to be the best (or least harmful/disruptive) choice. Munge From does not change the MIME structure and with compliant mail readers at least does not change the results of 'reply', 'reply all' and 'reply list'.
The big negative of Munge From is the message's From: header no longer contains the address of the author of the message so the message is no longer strictly compliant with RFCs 822, 2822 and 5322.
Anybody who has experience with how list subscribers respond to these changes, please let me know!
List subscribers with iThings do not like Wrap Message. At least some other mobile clients also have issues with this format. As I said, Munge From, despite it's non-compliance, is usually the better option.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 2:09 PM, Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> wrote:
Yes, that's the dilemma. Note that from_is_list does not have a 'reject' option.
Right, thanks. I was misremembering from when I looked at this last month.
For most lists, dmarc_moderation_action = Munge From turns out to be the best (or least harmful/disruptive) choice.
...
Isn't it also an issue that the message doesn't say who it's from, potentially, or how to contact the sender? My biggest list has a lot of job postings, conference announcements, etc.--things where you don't necessarily mention yourself in what you send in (even if you may include other contact info). In that case won't we risk confusing all the readers of the list? It'll look like the list itself (or rather its sponsoring organization) is promoting the job announcement.
Or, I would guess on any list, someone will often say "contact me for more info" with the assumption that their email address is up above. Am I misunderstanding Munge From?
List subscribers with iThings do not like Wrap Message. At least some other mobile clients also have issues with this format.
Thanks, that's really good to know.
On 01/11/2017 02:42 PM, Matt Morgan wrote:
That should not be the case. The original From: is always put in Reply-To: or in some cases Cc: with the intent that a compliant MUAs 'reply' and 'reply all' function will address the reply the same whether or not the message is Munged. Also, the sender's display name in the original From: is preserved. In a simple case with no Reply-To: munging, a message
From: Joe Poster <joe@example.com>
will be sent from the list with
From: Joe Poster via AList <alist@example.net> Reply-To: Joe Poster <joe@example.com>
Yes. I think so. This is what the code says
We think all Mailman versions 2.1.19 and later do a good job of meeting those goals.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
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