![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/9edcb608a75e597938e3901ba0d6fbbc.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
Inching forward here folks, trying to get Mailman 2.1.39 going.
I get to the point it calls Python and it dies with:
checking for python... /usr/local/bin/python checking Python interpreter... configure: error:
***** No Python interpreter found! ***** Try including the configure option ***** --with-python=/path/to/python/interpreter
I checked; there are only 245 different Python packages installed! -slap-forehead- What was I thinking! OF COURSE it requires more of 'em!
If I type python and then double-hit tab, I get:
python3 python3.11 python3.11-config python3.11-x86_64-config python3-config python-argcomplete-check-easy-install-script python-argcomplete-tcsh python-config
...I tryed to install the corresponding package, which appears to be Python 2.7.15, it as a package but it couldn't be found by the usual package manager
OTOH, can Python3 (what's there now) be THAT backwards incompatible?!
SURELY I can make it happy somehow, right?
How about an ln -s of /usr/local/bin/python to the one in my path?
Do I have to install the old Python from source, TOO?!
Anybody know?
Thanks, R
P.S. It seems BIZARRE to me that we have the good ole cc and gcc that just work after however many decades, yet the modern developers seem just not have a clue how - or just don't care - to code for longevity - what, the code to get python has to enter python3 now or just die? Really?
I'm sure you can easily tell I strongly disagree with modern practices about dependencies; "computer science" has gone backwards, at least in strategy! ... But I digress...
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/dbf97c196d6ec08d02e175372aecc411.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
On 2023-07-17 7:24 PM, Richard@KarmannGhia.org wrote:
P.S. It seems BIZARRE to me that we have the good ole cc and gcc that just work after however many decades
Well... they have flags that I think maybe will still let them compile K&R C. C++, OTOH, is in many respects worse than python, and yes: python 2 and 3 can be *that* incompatible. Boost library that C++ standards committee made part of modern "standard c++" is worse.
Abandon hope Dima
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/baa72321ff7f0e9dd8a7ce2673cf7de6.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
On 7/17/23 7:24 PM, Richard@KarmannGhia.org wrote:
OTOH, can Python3 (what's there now) be THAT backwards incompatible?!
How incompatible are AM & FM radio?
How incompatible are IPv4 and IPv6?
How incompatible are gasoline and Diesel motors?
SURELY I can make it happy somehow, right?
As Carl Z. alluded to, you'll have to /port/ Mailman to Python 3. Though I suspect you will both make some people happy and other people mad at doing so.
How about an ln -s of /usr/local/bin/python to the one in my path?
I don't think that's going to work out nearly as well as you hope it will.
Do I have to install the old Python from source, TOO?!
Maybe if you can't find a version of Python 2.x for your distribution.
Python 2 and Python 3 are enough different to effectively be different languages.
I'm inclined to agree with you. But that's just my opinion.
Grant. . . .
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/b273ab068bc220d17a3e4c710c401c4b.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
On 7/17/2023 5:54 PM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:
Python 2 and Python 3 are enough different to effectively be different languages.
BTW, there is a python2 to 3 converter, however -I- don't know how successful that would be and I've done multiple language conversions over time (basic->fortran, different dialects of fortran, perl->tcl, and a few others); there are always gotcha's that need hand editing to make them work or be sensible (and if an underlying library function is missing you'll have to get it from somewhere).
https://docs.python.org/3/library/2to3.html
If anyone feels like a "project", getting MM2 to run on python3 would be both a challenge and a service.
Later,
z!
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/41afc3e1168be35a12e86f0e7ba0baf7.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
On Tue, 2023-07-18 at 02:05 +0000, Carl Zwanzig wrote:
There's also this project:
https://github.com/jaredmauch/mailman2-python3/
-Jim P.
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/9edcb608a75e597938e3901ba0d6fbbc.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
On Mon, 17 Jul 2023, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
Now that Jared Mauch (I presume), is a man with a good plan! ;-)
(Maybe! How do we know they won't abandon Python3 like they did Python2? I mean, whatever happened to Python1?! Why isn't it just "Python"?)
Thanks, Jim, for pointing this out!
R
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/ac847e3bb1213b500ff8941fb0d145bb.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
Interesting guy, if this is him:
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2022/08/man-who-built-isp-instead-of-pay...
On Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 6:40 AM <Richard@karmannghia.org> wrote:
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/b273ab068bc220d17a3e4c710c401c4b.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
On 7/18/2023 6:39 AM, Richard@KarmannGhia.org wrote:
Why isn't it just "Python"?
Werlll...
https://www.pluralsight.com/resources/blog/cloud/the-story-of-python-2-and-3 "Python 3 exists because Guido saw areas of the language that needed some improvements and the changes couldn’t be made with backward compatibility in mind." (This wisdom of that has been hotly debated.)
Mind that there is -quite- a lot of p2 code out there that will never be changed. There are also a lot of hard feelings about the incompatibilities, and I know several companies that elected to rewrite into Rust or Go (or other languages) instead of to p3.
Having said that, IMHO it's not really on-topic for this list.
Later,
z!
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/e2371bef92eb40cd7c586e9f2cc75cd8.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
Richard@KarmannGhia.org writes:
(Maybe! How do we know they won't abandon Python3 like they did Python2?
They supported Python 2 for most of a decade after the release of Python 3. Not only does that bode well for longterm Python 3 support, there also will not be another break like Python 3 vs. Python 2. Nobody has the stamina to accept that much abuse again. There once was talk of going from Python 3.9 to Python 4.0, but that would have been just Python 3.10 by another name, just as backward compatible.
I mean, whatever happened to Python1?!
It gracefully evolved into Python 2. There were a couple of small compatibility breaks (introduction of true Boolean values was one, I think), which justified a few years with both Python 1 (with the Unicode type bolted on in v1.6) and Python 2 (with the compatibility breaks and a number of new syntaxes, and a more thorough integration of Unicode) being supported and distributed at the same time.
Why isn't it just "Python"?)
To let people know that there are definitely backward incompatibilities.
Steve
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/56f108518d7ee2544412cc80978e3182.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
On 7/17/23 17:24, Richard@KarmannGhia.org wrote:
You need Python 2.7. As others have pointed out, Mailman 2.1 won't work with Python 3.
You can install Python 2.7.18 from source <https://www.python.org/downloads/release/python-2718/> or you can look for a repository that allows you to install it as a package for your OS.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/19e21a1f005c894a5543a086c1076e60.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
At Mon, 17 Jul 2023 17:24:15 -0700 (PDT) Richard@KarmannGhia.org wrote:
Mailman 2.x uses Python2, which is (long) EOL. I don't think Mailman 2.x will work with Python3.
-- Robert Heller -- Cell: 413-658-7953 GV: 978-633-5364 Deepwoods Software -- Custom Software Services http://www.deepsoft.com/ -- Linux Administration Services heller@deepsoft.com -- Webhosting Services
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/dbf97c196d6ec08d02e175372aecc411.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
On 2023-07-17 7:24 PM, Richard@KarmannGhia.org wrote:
P.S. It seems BIZARRE to me that we have the good ole cc and gcc that just work after however many decades
Well... they have flags that I think maybe will still let them compile K&R C. C++, OTOH, is in many respects worse than python, and yes: python 2 and 3 can be *that* incompatible. Boost library that C++ standards committee made part of modern "standard c++" is worse.
Abandon hope Dima
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/baa72321ff7f0e9dd8a7ce2673cf7de6.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
On 7/17/23 7:24 PM, Richard@KarmannGhia.org wrote:
OTOH, can Python3 (what's there now) be THAT backwards incompatible?!
How incompatible are AM & FM radio?
How incompatible are IPv4 and IPv6?
How incompatible are gasoline and Diesel motors?
SURELY I can make it happy somehow, right?
As Carl Z. alluded to, you'll have to /port/ Mailman to Python 3. Though I suspect you will both make some people happy and other people mad at doing so.
How about an ln -s of /usr/local/bin/python to the one in my path?
I don't think that's going to work out nearly as well as you hope it will.
Do I have to install the old Python from source, TOO?!
Maybe if you can't find a version of Python 2.x for your distribution.
Python 2 and Python 3 are enough different to effectively be different languages.
I'm inclined to agree with you. But that's just my opinion.
Grant. . . .
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/b273ab068bc220d17a3e4c710c401c4b.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
On 7/17/2023 5:54 PM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:
Python 2 and Python 3 are enough different to effectively be different languages.
BTW, there is a python2 to 3 converter, however -I- don't know how successful that would be and I've done multiple language conversions over time (basic->fortran, different dialects of fortran, perl->tcl, and a few others); there are always gotcha's that need hand editing to make them work or be sensible (and if an underlying library function is missing you'll have to get it from somewhere).
https://docs.python.org/3/library/2to3.html
If anyone feels like a "project", getting MM2 to run on python3 would be both a challenge and a service.
Later,
z!
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/41afc3e1168be35a12e86f0e7ba0baf7.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
On Tue, 2023-07-18 at 02:05 +0000, Carl Zwanzig wrote:
There's also this project:
https://github.com/jaredmauch/mailman2-python3/
-Jim P.
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/9edcb608a75e597938e3901ba0d6fbbc.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
On Mon, 17 Jul 2023, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
Now that Jared Mauch (I presume), is a man with a good plan! ;-)
(Maybe! How do we know they won't abandon Python3 like they did Python2? I mean, whatever happened to Python1?! Why isn't it just "Python"?)
Thanks, Jim, for pointing this out!
R
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/ac847e3bb1213b500ff8941fb0d145bb.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
Interesting guy, if this is him:
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2022/08/man-who-built-isp-instead-of-pay...
On Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 6:40 AM <Richard@karmannghia.org> wrote:
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/b273ab068bc220d17a3e4c710c401c4b.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
On 7/18/2023 6:39 AM, Richard@KarmannGhia.org wrote:
Why isn't it just "Python"?
Werlll...
https://www.pluralsight.com/resources/blog/cloud/the-story-of-python-2-and-3 "Python 3 exists because Guido saw areas of the language that needed some improvements and the changes couldn’t be made with backward compatibility in mind." (This wisdom of that has been hotly debated.)
Mind that there is -quite- a lot of p2 code out there that will never be changed. There are also a lot of hard feelings about the incompatibilities, and I know several companies that elected to rewrite into Rust or Go (or other languages) instead of to p3.
Having said that, IMHO it's not really on-topic for this list.
Later,
z!
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/e2371bef92eb40cd7c586e9f2cc75cd8.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
Richard@KarmannGhia.org writes:
(Maybe! How do we know they won't abandon Python3 like they did Python2?
They supported Python 2 for most of a decade after the release of Python 3. Not only does that bode well for longterm Python 3 support, there also will not be another break like Python 3 vs. Python 2. Nobody has the stamina to accept that much abuse again. There once was talk of going from Python 3.9 to Python 4.0, but that would have been just Python 3.10 by another name, just as backward compatible.
I mean, whatever happened to Python1?!
It gracefully evolved into Python 2. There were a couple of small compatibility breaks (introduction of true Boolean values was one, I think), which justified a few years with both Python 1 (with the Unicode type bolted on in v1.6) and Python 2 (with the compatibility breaks and a number of new syntaxes, and a more thorough integration of Unicode) being supported and distributed at the same time.
Why isn't it just "Python"?)
To let people know that there are definitely backward incompatibilities.
Steve
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/56f108518d7ee2544412cc80978e3182.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
On 7/17/23 17:24, Richard@KarmannGhia.org wrote:
You need Python 2.7. As others have pointed out, Mailman 2.1 won't work with Python 3.
You can install Python 2.7.18 from source <https://www.python.org/downloads/release/python-2718/> or you can look for a repository that allows you to install it as a package for your OS.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
![](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/19e21a1f005c894a5543a086c1076e60.jpg?s=120&d=mm&r=g)
At Mon, 17 Jul 2023 17:24:15 -0700 (PDT) Richard@KarmannGhia.org wrote:
Mailman 2.x uses Python2, which is (long) EOL. I don't think Mailman 2.x will work with Python3.
-- Robert Heller -- Cell: 413-658-7953 GV: 978-633-5364 Deepwoods Software -- Custom Software Services http://www.deepsoft.com/ -- Linux Administration Services heller@deepsoft.com -- Webhosting Services
participants (9)
-
Carl Zwanzig
-
dmitri maziuk
-
Grant Taylor
-
Jim Popovitch
-
Mark Sapiro
-
Richard@KarmannGhia.org
-
Robert Heller
-
Russell Clemings
-
Stephen J. Turnbull