Automatic bounce processing; listname-bounces vs. listname-bounces+XXXX
Our mailing lists had been processing bounces correctly for quite some time.
For some reason though, this has stopped functioning properly.
Bounces were coming back to list-bounces+XXXX, and are now coming back to list-bounces, without the XXXX.
The setting "Should Mailman perform automatic bounce processing?" is set to yes.
Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.
john
What I am getting now:
==================================================================== Subject: Uncaught bounce notification From: mailman-bounces@radiolists.net To: mailman-owner@radiolists.net Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 05:03:56 -0600 Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: mailman@radiolists.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 List-Id: mailman.radiolists.net X-List-Administrivia: yes Sender: mailman-bounces@radiolists.net Errors-To: mailman-bounces@radiolists.net
The attached message was received as a bounce, but either the bounce format was not recognized, or no member addresses could be extracted from it. This mailing list has been configured to send all unrecognized bounce messages to the list administrator(s).
For more information see: http://lists.radiolists.net/mailman/admin/mailman/bounce
Return-Path: <> Delivered-To: 9-mailman-bounces@radiolists.net Date: 1 Jan 2009 11:03:48 -0000 From: MAILER-DAEMON@example.com To: mailman-bounces@radiolists.net Subject: failure notice
This is the mail delivery agent at example.com. I was not able to deliver your message to the following addresses.
<user@example.com>: 208.77.188.166 does not like recipient. Remote host said: 550 <user@example.com>... User not known
--- Below this line is a copy of the message.
Return-Path: <mailman-bounces@radiolists.net> Subject: radiolists.net mailing list memberships reminder From: mailman-owner@radiolists.net To: user@example.com Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 05:01:05 -0600 Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: mailman@radiolists.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 List-Id: mailman.radiolists.net X-List-Administrivia: yes Sender: mailman-bounces@radiolists.net Errors-To: mailman-bounces@radiolists.net
This is a reminder, sent out once a month, about your radiolists.net mailing list memberships. It includes your subscription info and how to use it to change it or unsubscribe from a list.
You can visit the URLs to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
In addition to the URL interfaces, you can also use email to make such changes. For more info, send a message to the '-request' address of the list (for example, mailman-request@radiolists.net) containing just the word 'help' in the message body, and an email message will be sent to you with instructions.
If you have questions, problems, comments, etc, send them to mailman-owner@radiolists.net. Thanks!
Passwords for user@example.com:
List Password // URL
example_list@radiolists.net 123456 http://lists.radiolists.net/mailman/options/example-list/user% 40example.com
====================================================================
John Wesley Simpson Hibbs <john@swajime.com> SwaJime's Cove
on 1/1/09 9:30 AM, John Wesley Simpson Hibbs said:
Our mailing lists had been processing bounces correctly for quite some time.
For some reason though, this has stopped functioning properly.
Bounces were coming back to list-bounces+XXXX, and are now coming back to list-bounces, without the XXXX.
The setting "Should Mailman perform automatic bounce processing?" is set to yes.
Do you run your own MTA to transmit your messages, or is that service provided by someone else. This smells to me like someone somewhere made some changes on the MTA to strip VERP-style "plus" addressing, and that may have borked your mailing lists.
If you run your own mail server, check to see if there have been any recent changes made on the MTA. Check the logs of the MTA from both before the change and after the change, to see what the effect is.
If you don't run your own mail server, you'll need to contact the people that do to get them to do this analysis for you.
-- Brad Knowles <brad@shub-internet.org> If you like Jazz/R&B guitar, check out LinkedIn Profile: my friend bigsbytracks on YouTube at <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu> http://preview.tinyurl.com/bigsbytracks
John Wesley Simpson Hibbs wrote:
Our mailing lists had been processing bounces correctly for quite some time.
For some reason though, this has stopped functioning properly.
Did you just upgrade to Mailman 2.1.11?
Bounces were coming back to list-bounces+XXXX, and are now coming back to list-bounces, without the XXXX.
The difference is Mailman's VERP
The setting "Should Mailman perform automatic bounce processing?" is set to yes.
Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.
john
What I am getting now:
[Bounce of a Password reminder snipped.]
Is it only password reminders that you are seeing as unrecognized bounces?
There are two things going on now. The password reminder wasn't VERP'd because this is controlled by VERP_PASSWORD_REMINDERS which is a separate setting in mm_cfg.py from those that control VERPing of list messages.
In 2.1.11, the VERPing of the password reminder wouldn't matter because of two things:
Password reminders don't come from a regular list. Since reminders may be for more that one list when the address is subscribed to more than one list, the reminder is sent from the site list (this is not new in 2.1.11).
Site list bounces are handled differently in 2.1.11. In the past, if something from the site list bounced, at least in some cases it was handled as an ordinary bounce of a message from the site list. In most cases, these bounces were bounces of password reminders, and the remindee is not a member of the site list anyway, so the bounce, if recognized, would be ignored. The 2.1.11 change is to forward all site list bounces to the site list owner without even trying to recognize them.
However, upon looking closer, I see that this probably isn't what's going on here, because the forward to the site list owner as above is not wrapped in an "unrecognized bounce" message.
I tried running that message through the current recognizers, and it is recognized, so now it looks to me as if:
you have an older Mailman that doesn't recognize that particular bounce, and
You have not set "VERP_PASSWORD_REMINDERS = Yes" in mm_cfg.py.
Actually, It is a good thing you saw this unrecognized bounce. Had it been recognized, it would have been ignored as the user probably isn't a member of the site list.
What happens in these cases is a list member sets delivery off for some reason and then forgets about the list. Then the address dies and the only mail to the address is the monthly password reminder which even if it bounces and is recognized, never removes the dead address from the list of which it is a member.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
On Fri, 2009-01-02 at 08:36 -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote:
John Wesley Simpson Hibbs wrote:
Our mailing lists had been processing bounces correctly for quite some time.
For some reason though, this has stopped functioning properly.
Did you just upgrade to Mailman 2.1.11?
No... we are still on 2.1.5
Is it only password reminders that you are seeing as unrecognized bounces?
No... I've appended one that was not a password reminder to the end of this post.
There are two things going on now. The password reminder wasn't VERP'd because this is controlled by VERP_PASSWORD_REMINDERS which is a separate setting in mm_cfg.py from those that control VERPing of list messages.
I just now appended (per your advise) the following to mm_cfg.py:
VERP_PASSWORD_REMINDERS = Yes
VERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES = Yes
VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = YesI then did "service mailman restart" and sent a test message through. Still no +VERP in the list-bounces@. This is rather annoying, especially since I went to a lot of trouble getting qmail to deliver the list-bounces+VERP to mailman in the first place, and things were working for quite a while...
Any more suggestions?
john
However, upon looking closer, I see that this probably isn't what's going on here, because the forward to the site list owner as above is not wrapped in an "unrecognized bounce" message.
I tried running that message through the current recognizers, and it is recognized, so now it looks to me as if:
you have an older Mailman that doesn't recognize that particular bounce, and
You have not set "VERP_PASSWORD_REMINDERS = Yes" in mm_cfg.py.
Actually, It is a good thing you saw this unrecognized bounce. Had it been recognized, it would have been ignored as the user probably isn't a member of the site list.
What happens in these cases is a list member sets delivery off for some reason and then forgets about the list. Then the address dies and the only mail to the address is the monthly password reminder which even if it bounces and is recognized, never removes the dead address from the list of which it is a member.
Subject: Uncaught bounce notification From: mailman-bounces@example.net To: list-owner@example.net Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 16:12:01 -0600 Sender: mailman-bounces@example.net
The attached message was received as a bounce, but either the bounce format was not recognized, or no member addresses could be extracted from it. This mailing list has been configured to send all unrecognized bounce messages to the list administrator(s).
For more information see: http://lists.example.net/mailman/admin/list/bounce
Return-Path: <> Delivered-To: 9-list-bounces@example.net Date: 20 Dec 2008 22:11:56 -0000 From: MAILER-DAEMON@subscriber.example.net To: list-bounces@example.net Subject: failure notice We're sorry. There's a problem with the e-mail address(es) you're
=============== trying
to send to. Please verify the address(es) and try again. If you continue to have problems, please contact Customer Support at (nnn) nnn-nnnn.
<somebody@subscriber.example.net>: child status 100...The e-mail message could not be delivered because the user's mailfolder is full.
--- Below this line is a copy of the message.
Return-Path: <list-bounces@example.net> Return-Path: <poster@poster.example.net> Delivered-To: 9-list@radiolists.net Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 17:11:34 -0500 From: "Poster" <poster@poster.example.net> To: LIST <list@example.net> Subject: [LIST] _________ X-BeenThere: list@example.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: LIST <list@example.net> List-Id: LIST <list.example.net> Sender: list-bounces@example.net Errors-To: list-bounces@example.net
John Wesley Simpson Hibbs wrote:
On Fri, 2009-01-02 at 08:36 -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote:
Is it only password reminders that you are seeing as unrecognized bounces?
No... I've appended one that was not a password reminder to the end of this post.
[...]
I just now appended (per your advise) the following to mm_cfg.py:
VERP_PASSWORD_REMINDERS = Yes VERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES = Yes VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes
I then did "service mailman restart" and sent a test message through. Still no +VERP in the list-bounces@.
I assume you also have
VERP_DELIVERY_INTERVAL = 1
in mm_cfg.py. That's the important one.
This is rather annoying, especially since I went to a lot of trouble getting qmail to deliver the list-bounces+VERP to mailman in the first place, and things were working for quite a while...
[...]
Return-Path: <> Delivered-To: 9-list-bounces@example.net Date: 20 Dec 2008 22:11:56 -0000 From: MAILER-DAEMON@subscriber.example.net To: list-bounces@example.net Subject: failure notice We're sorry. There's a problem with the e-mail address(es) you're trying to send to. Please verify the address(es) and try again. If you continue to have problems, please contact Customer Support at (nnn) nnn-nnnn.
<somebody@subscriber.example.net>: child status 100...The e-mail message could not be delivered because the user's mailfolder is full.
--- Below this line is a copy of the message.
Return-Path: <list-bounces@example.net> Return-Path: <poster@poster.example.net> Delivered-To: 9-list@radiolists.net Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 17:11:34 -0500 From: "Poster" <poster@poster.example.net> To: LIST <list@example.net> Subject: [LIST] _________ X-BeenThere: list@example.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: LIST <list@example.net> List-Id: LIST <list.example.net> Sender: list-bounces@example.net Errors-To: list-bounces@example.net
When Mailman does the VERPing, not only the envelope sender (reflected as Return-Path:), but also the Sender: and Errors-To: headers are VERPd. Brad suggested in another reply that it is possibly some other, external MTA that is "unVERPing" the envelope. It seems unlikely that this is the case, both because it would also have to be "unVERPing" the Sender: and Errors-To:, and because I suspect that the qmail generated DSN above was generated by your own local qmail.
So it looks like for some reason, Mailman is not VERPing. Assuming you do have
VERP_DELIVERY_INTERVAL = 1
in mm_cfg.py, and it didn't somehow get lost, I don't know what would make Mailman behave this way.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
On Sat, 2009-01-03 at 17:11 -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote:
John Wesley Simpson Hibbs wrote:
I just now appended (per your advise) the following to mm_cfg.py:
VERP_PASSWORD_REMINDERS = Yes VERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES = Yes VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes
I then did "service mailman restart" and sent a test message through. Still no +VERP in the list-bounces@.
I assume you also have
VERP_DELIVERY_INTERVAL = 1
in mm_cfg.py. That's the important one. ... So it looks like for some reason, Mailman is not VERPing. Assuming you do have
VERP_DELIVERY_INTERVAL = 1
in mm_cfg.py, and it didn't somehow get lost, I don't know what would make Mailman behave this way.
That was the culprit... I see my +VERP's now, although they look somewhat different from what I remember. Now I see my address in the VERP, where before I saw long numeric strings. At any rate, this looks like it's fixed now. I'll post back when I know for sure.
Thanks very much Mark,
-- John Wesley Simpson Hibbs <john@swajime.com> SwaJime's Cove
John Wesley Simpson Hibbs wrote:
That was the culprit... I see my +VERP's now, although they look somewhat different from what I remember. Now I see my address in the VERP, where before I saw long numeric strings. At any rate, this looks like it's fixed now. I'll post back when I know for sure.
What you were seeing before was a VERP probe. I recommend you disable those by setting
VERP_PROBES = No
in mm_cfg.py. This feature was introduced in 2.1.5 and has defaulted to No since 2.1.6. With VERP_PROBES = Yes, when a user's bounce score reaches the threshold, the score is reset and the user is sent a probe message from LIST-bounces+string_of_hex_digits@..., and the user's delivery is only disabled by bounce if the probe bounces. If for some reason, the probe bounces don't return, the user is never disabled.
This usually has an adverse effect only if normal deliveries aren't VERPd and mail to the VERP like address is not properly delivered, but this is exactly why the default was changed in 2.1.6.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
participants (3)
-
Brad Knowles -
John Wesley Simpson Hibbs -
Mark Sapiro