On 12/26/2015 04:55 AM, MichaelLeung wrote:

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On 12/26/2015 08:11 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:

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... On 12/26/2015 03:10 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:

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hi all

anyone had face this problem before ?

if i send the mail from a client end , like thunder, mailman can read it correctly .

A message is held for "implicit destination" is the list is not explicitly addressed in To: or Cc: of the message. See the lists web admin Privacy options... ->Recipient filters settings for ways to control this.

This has nothing to do with the Subject: or the envelope sender (sendmail -r option). If Mailman's require_explicit_destination is Yes, sending the message to the list posting address is not sufficient. The message must also have a To: or Cc: header with the list posting address.

-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan

i sent it to a mailbox instead of a maillist , mailbox can read the subject, i did use cc or bcc .

On 12/27/2015 09:07 AM, Barry S. Finkel wrote:

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On 12/26/2015 03:10 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:

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hi all

anyone had face this problem before ?

if i send the mail from a client end , like thunder, mailman can read it correctly .

On 12/26/2015 08:11 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:

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...

hi

i locate this problem

maillman cannot read subject when i use command like mail -s 'subject' xxx@abc.com, but if i dont speacify the subject at the first, like mail xxx@abc.com, when i subject key prompt , then enter the subject , this mail can be read by mailman correctly .

does any know what wrong?

On 12/26/2015 6:55 AM, MichaelLeung wrote:

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sorry , i think i m wrong,

subject is not the root case,

i actually user -r paramater to speacify the sender as the mailman's name , then mailman failed to ready mail's subject.

any one can fix this ?

The message "implicit destination" is issued if the list name to which the mail is addressed does not appear in an RFC5322 "From:" or "To:" line. This implies that the list name was in a "Bcc:" line. If you want to send to a list via "Bcc:", you have to change the list configuration to allow implicit destination. The mailman-supplied default is to not allow the list name in a "Bcc:"

--Barry Finkel

---

Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/gbcbooksmj%40gmail.com

hi Mark

thanks for your reply

my issue is when i send a email by using sendmail commandline to mailist , maillist services can not read this message correctly , the message will become a "Message has implicit destination" warning , but it did have a subject and i pretty sure that i have a subject and i did not use cc or bcc .

this issue will happen if i speacified maillist name as the sender and the recipient from the comandline , that means ,if i send it from client , maillist service will forward it to its members as normal.

On 12/27/2015 10:44 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

On 12/26/2015 06:23 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:

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i sent it to a mailbox instead of a maillist , mailbox can read the subject, i did use cc or bcc .

I cannot understand what exactly your issue is. Your subject for this message says "mails send from sendmail with commandline to mailman become 'Message has implicit destination'"

This seems to say to me that you are sending a message to a Mailman list and it is being held by Mailman for the reason 'Message has implicit destination'. If that is the case, it is being held because the list's Privacy options... -> Recipient filters -> require_explicit_destination setting is Yes and either the list or one of the list's acceptable_aliases is not explicitly in a To: or Cc: header of the message received by the Mailman list.

If that is not the case, then I don't understand what the problem is.

Also note, if you use the command line sendmail command as in

sendmail list@example.com < file/with/message

the sendmail command adds no headers to the message in file/with/message. That message must contain headers like From:, Subject: and To:, in particular

To: list@example.com

the sendmail command itself adds no headers to the message.

If you still don't understand what's happening, please post the exact command that you issue to send the mail and the contents of the file you are sending.

i did not know the different between mail and sendmail

i actually use mail , not sendmail, sorry

for example

echo "please dont reply this email" | mail -v -s 'this is a test mail' -r mailman@maillist.com mailman@maillist.com

On 12/27/2015 11:52 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

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my issue is when i send a email by using sendmail commandline to mailist , maillist services can not read this message correctly , the message will become a "Message has implicit destination" warning , but it did have a subject and i pretty sure that i have a subject and i did not use cc or bcc .

The message file that you sent did not contain a To: header with the list address.

The sendmail command, unlike the mail command, does not add headers to the input and your message must have a To: header with the list address in order to not be flagged for implicit destination.

In other words if you are sending the message with some command like

sendmail -r you@example.com list@example.com < input_file

the file input_file must contain things like

---

To: list@example.com From: you@example.com Subject: The message subject

The body of the message

The sending MTA will probably add headers like Message-ID: and Date:, but it won't add To: which is your issue.

If you want to use a command line command that will add header like To: and Subject: use the mail command, not the sendmail command.

HI Mark

please Received: from iZ255b8oaekZ.yyyyyy.cn ([123.57.8.47]) by vps2.xxxxx.eu.org (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id tBR4SIEB021591 for <gtexpress-support@yyyyyy.eu.org>; Sun, 27 Dec 2015 04:28:18 GMT Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 04:28:18 GMT From: gtexpress-support@yyyyyy.eu.org Message-Id: <201512270428.tBR4SIEB021591@vps2.xxxxx.eu.org>

On 12/27/2015 12:20 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

On 12/26/2015 07:58 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:

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i did not know the different between mail and sendmail

i actually use mail , not sendmail, sorry

for example

echo "please dont reply this email" | mail -v -s 'this is a test mail' -r mailman@maillist.com mailman@maillist.com

So, are you saying that the message sent by the above command is held by the list mailman@maillist.com because of implicit destination.

If that is the case, please go to the web admindb interface for the mailman@maillist.com list, click on the message number and on the resultan't page, select all the text in the "Message Headers:" box, copy it and paste it into a post to this list so I can see it.

if you are convenience , i can create a newlist for test and grand you as the adminitrator.

On 12/27/2015 12:20 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

On 12/26/2015 07:58 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:

...

i did not know the different between mail and sendmail

i actually use mail , not sendmail, sorry

for example

echo "please dont reply this email" | mail -v -s 'this is a test mail' -r mailman@maillist.com mailman@maillist.com

So, are you saying that the message sent by the above command is held by the list mailman@maillist.com because of implicit destination.

If that is the case, please go to the web admindb interface for the mailman@maillist.com list, click on the message number and on the resultan't page, select all the text in the "Message Headers:" box, copy it and paste it into a post to this list so I can see it.

i have two sendmail server , i send a test mail from the same machine to these two server one works fine , the other one 's is what we facing for .

On 12/27/2015 12:42 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

On 12/26/2015 08:33 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:

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if you are convenience , i can create a newlist for test and grand you as the adminitrator.

The problem is not Mailman. The problem is the 'mail' command on your system.

On 12/26/2015 08:51 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:

i have two sendmail server , i send a test mail from the same machine to these two server one works fine , the other one 's is what we facing for .

On 12/27/2015 12:42 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

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On 12/26/2015 08:33 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:

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if you are convenience , i can create a newlist for test and grand you as the adminitrator.

The problem is not Mailman. The problem is the 'mail' command on your system.

As I said, the problem is when you issue the command

echo "please dont reply this email" | mail -v -s 'this is a test mail' -r mailman@maillist.com mailman@maillist.com

and it results in the message being held for implicit destination, it is because that particular 'mail' command is not adding the Subject: and To: headers to the message it creates. I.e., it is not doing what the usual 'mail' command does.

Try doing

echo "please dont reply this email" | mailx -v -s 'this is a test mail' -r mailman@maillist.com mailman@maillist.com

instead. I.e. use mailx rather than mail. also, as I asked before,

What output do the following commands produce:

ls -l which mail

ls -l which sendmail

ls -l which mailx

-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan

On 12/26/2015 09:19 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:

i get confuse, how did it work on the other mailman server.

Do you have 1) two different Mailman servers one of which accepts the message an one of which doesn't or do you have 2) two different machines from which you send the message to the same mailman server or do you perhaps have 3) two different machines from which you send the message to two different mailman servers?

if 1) it is because the Mailman list which accepts the message has its Privacy options... -> Recipient filters -> require_explicit_destination set to No and the other list has it set to Yes.

if 2) it is because the 'mail' command on the non-working machine is broken.

if 3) it is one of those two reasons.

Please answer these questions:

1. on how many different machines do you run the mail command? If more than one, does it work from one and not another?

2. how many mailman lists/servers are there? If more than one, does it work on one and not another?

on the machine(s) on which you run the mail command,

-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan

as i said

i have three machines two are mailman servers, one is responsible for sending mail

i send mails to these from the third machine to that two mailman servers, one accepted the message , but the other one didnot.

On 12/27/2015 01:45 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

On 12/26/2015 09:42 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

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...

i get confuse, how did it work on the other mailman server. Do you have 1) two different Mailman servers one of which accepts the message an one of which doesn't or do you have 2) two different machines from which you send the message to the same mailman server or do you

On 12/26/2015 09:19 PM, MichaelLeung wrote: perhaps have 3) two different machines from which you send the message to two different mailman servers?

if 1) it is because the Mailman list which accepts the message has its Privacy options... -> Recipient filters -> require_explicit_destination set to No and the other list has it set to Yes.

if 2) it is because the 'mail' command on the non-working machine is broken.

if 3) it is one of those two reasons.

Please answer these questions:

1. on how many different machines do you run the mail command? If more than one, does it work from one and not another?

2. how many mailman lists/servers are there? If more than one, does it work on one and not another?

on the machine(s) on which you run the mail command,

Ignore the above incomplete message. The relevant message is <https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2015-December/080249.html>

On 12/27/2015 12:37 AM, MichaelLeung wrote:

i think is related to the sender address

as i use -r to speacified a maillist address as the sender address and send this mail to this maillist , Mailman will report the issue , which mean while , if the from address is differen to recipient address, mailman will accept it.

I am really trying to help you, but it is difficult when you don't answer my questions.

Please see the post at <https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2015-December/080249.html> and answer the questions in that post.

Also please do both of the following commands exactly as shown:

echo "test message 1" | mail -s 'test mail 1' -r mark@msapiro.net mark@msapiro.net

echo "test message 2" | mail -s 'test mail 2' mark@msapiro.net

When you have done the above commands and answered the questions in the post at <https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2015-December/080249.html>, I will respond further.

-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan

so , i think the root cause relate to the if mailman does support spoofing sender or not ,

but from my another instance mailman server , the answer should be YES, cause this instance mailman server can accept mail sent from abc@mailman.com to abc@mailman.com

On 12/28/2015 10:42 AM, MichaelLeung wrote:

hi all sorry , i think i miss the previous email

here is the output ls -l which mail lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 22 12月 18 11:13 /bin/mail -> /etc/alternatives/mail

ls -l which sendmail lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 21 12月 18 11:12 /usr/sbin/sendmail -> /etc/alternatives/mta

ls -l which mailx -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 390720 12月 17 2014 /bin/mailx

to Barry

i issue mail command on a Centos 6.5 which the mail version is mailx-12.4-8.el6_6.x86_64

and ,i did a further test last night ,

mailman did not accept those emails set their From address as the maillist address.

which means , for example , if my maillist address is abc@mailman.com then mailman server will not accept those emails sent from abc@mailman.com to abc@mailman.com

and if abc@aliase.com is a aliase of abc@mailman.com

mailman server can accept those emails sent from abc@aliase.com to abc@mailman.com

even aliase.com and mailman.com are resolved to a same IP address.

On 12/28/2015 01:42 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

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On 12/27/2015 12:37 AM, MichaelLeung wrote:

...

i think is related to the sender address

as i use -r to speacified a maillist address as the sender address and send this mail to this maillist , Mailman will report the issue , which mean while , if the from address is differen to recipient address, mailman will accept it.

I am really trying to help you, but it is difficult when you don't answer my questions.

Please see the post at <https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2015-December/080249.html>

and answer the questions in that post.

Also please do both of the following commands exactly as shown:

...

echo "test message 1" | mail -s 'test mail 1' -r mark@msapiro.net mark@msapiro.net echo "test message 2" | mail -s 'test mail 2' mark@msapiro.net When you have done the above commands and answered the questions in the post at <https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2015-December/080249.html>,

I will respond further.

On 12/27/2015 06:42 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:

hi all sorry , i think i miss the previous email

here is the output ls -l which mail lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 22 12月 18 11:13 /bin/mail -> /etc/alternatives/mail

ls -l which sendmail lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 21 12月 18 11:12 /usr/sbin/sendmail -> /etc/alternatives/mta

ls -l which mailx -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 390720 12月 17 2014 /bin/mailx

You are still not paying attention.

I also asked that if any of those results were symlinks that you do 'ls -l' on the target. I.e. in this case

ls -l /etc/alternatives/mail

and

ls -l /etc/alternatives/mta

Further, I asked you

Also please do both of the following commands exactly as shown:

echo "test message 1" | mail -s 'test mail 1' -r mark@msapiro.net mark@msapiro.net echo "test message 2" | mail -s 'test mail 2' mark@msapiro.net

If you have done that, I didn't get the resultant mail.

-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan

please tell me what did you see the To: and the Subject:header

i issue these commands

echo "test message 1" | mail -s 'test mail 1' -r user1@gtexrxxxx.eu.org user1@gtexrxxxx.eu.org

echo "test message 2" | mail -s 'test mail 2' user1@gtexrxxxx.eu.org

i got test mail 2 as normal ,but test mail 1 did not have To:and Subject:header

On 12/28/2015 12:10 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

I wrote:

...

Further, I asked you

...

Also please do both of the following commands exactly as shown:

echo "test message 1" | mail -s 'test mail 1' -r mark at msapiro.net mark at msapiro.net echo "test message 2" | mail -s 'test mail 2' mark at msapiro.net

If you have done that, I didn't get the resultant mail.

OK, I got the mails and they both have the expected To: and Subject: headers.

So, if you are certain that the issue is 'Message has implicit destination', then I think the issue is that the mail to the list that doesn't work is not addressed to the address that the list thinks is the list address. I.e. it is addressed to some other address that winds up at that list by aliasing/forwarding.

Go to the list's web admin interface and look at Privacy options... -> Recipient filters. Read that page and also the pages at the (Details for require_explicit_destination) and (Details for acceptable_aliases) links.

That should explain what's happening and what you can do about it.

If on the other hand, the message is held for something like "post by non-member ..." look at Privacy options... -> Sender filters.

I am done for today and going fishing tomorrow. I'll be back here in about 20 hours.

Hi Mark

normally , dovecot service will save a copy of mail that i sent , but , mailx won't ,

i was using mailx to sent those test mails to you , so , there were no raw message left in my mail server

from the message that you received , there is nothing wrong with the spoofing mail(test mail 1)

remeber i said i have two mail servers and one client machine,

i sent those test mail to these two mail servers , one accept test mails just did as yours , another one (the one are fixing ), lost the To: and subject:header.

i start to believe that is my sendmail service's problem.

On 12/29/2015 11:58 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

On 12/27/2015 10:11 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:

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please tell me what did you see the To: and the Subject:header

Look at the raw message or at least the raw message headers. You can do this with, e.g., less or vi on the mailbox containing the message or with any mail client that will show you the raw message or the complete headers.

Here are the messages I received from you minus some headers such as Received:, Delivered-To: and MailScanner headers added by MTAs in transit.

message sent by echo "test message 1" | mail -s 'test mail 1' -r mark@ msapiro.net mark@msapiro.net

Return-Path: <mark@msapiro.net> Received: (from root@localhost) by ali.gbcbooks.eu.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Submit) id tBS3e95u030672 for mark@msapiro.net; Mon, 28 Dec 2015 11:40:09 +0800 Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 11:40:09 +0800 From: mark@msapiro.net To: mark@msapiro.net Subject: test mail 1 Message-ID: <5680af19.5TMi+2OLTZoLTjxO%mark@msapiro.net> User-Agent: Heirloom mailx 12.4 7/29/08 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

test message 1

Return-Path: is set by the final MTA to the envelope sender set by the -r option. The message contains both Subject: from the -s option and To: with the recipients address. The From: header is also set freom the -r option

message sent by echo "test message 2" | mail -s 'test mail 2' mark@msapiro.net

Return-Path: <root@ali.gbcbooks.eu.org> Received: (from root@localhost) by ali.gbcbooks.eu.org (8.14.4/8.14.4/Submit) id tBS3e9io030675 for mark@msapiro.net; Mon, 28 Dec 2015 11:40:09 +0800 From: root <root@ali.gbcbooks.eu.org> Message-Id: <201512280340.tBS3e9io030675@ali.gbcbooks.eu.org> Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 11:40:09 +0800 To: mark@msapiro.net Subject: test mail 2 User-Agent: Heirloom mailx 12.4 7/29/08 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

test message 2

This message is the same except the From: and Return-Path: are the user@host that sent it because there is no -r option.

...

i issue these commands

echo "test message 1" | mail -s 'test mail 1' -r user1@gtexrxxxx.eu.org user1@gtexrxxxx.eu.org

echo "test message 2" | mail -s 'test mail 2' user1@gtexrxxxx.eu.org

i got test mail 2 as normal ,but test mail 1 did not have To:and Subject:header

And how did you look at it to determine that? The messages you sent to me clearly do have appropriate To: and Subject: headers put there by your mailx User-Agent:

Mack Sapiro wrote in response to MichaelLeung :

What output do the following commands produce:

ls -l which mail

ls -l which sendmail

ls -l which mailx

Michael, you have not given us the output of those commands (unless I missed something in the dialog between you and Mark). And also, what on what type of Unix box are you issuing the "mail" command?

--Barry Finkel

here is the list i have three machine

1.first mailman server 2.sec mailman server 3. mail sender

all test mails are send from 3, the mail sender

On 12/27/2015 01:23 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

On 12/26/2015 08:51 PM, MichaelLeung wrote:

...

i have two sendmail server , i send a test mail from the same machine to these two server one works fine , the other one 's is what we facing for .

If what you are saying here is you have two different machines and the command

...

echo "please dont reply this email" | mail -v -s 'this is a test mail' -r mailman@maillist.com mailman@maillist.com produces a message which is accepted by Mailman when run on one machine, but it produces a message which is held for implicit destination when run on the other machine, that is because the 'mail' command is only broken on the second machine.