Once before, I asked about possible solutions to problems that occur when people misread and/or 'reply' to mailman 'administrative' emails. I would like to cut-n-paste a latest mailing from a list subscriber to emphasize the problem.
I'm not asking for an 'explanation', but I *am* asking that developers of mailman look through the email and SEE the 'chain of logic' that has a user sending requests to manage their 'bird list' subscription via the "last address used to send them mail about it." then eventually asking me to help them because they missed the critical piece of info that they need to do their commands on a 'per list' basis.
I'm complaining that my time is WASTED over and over by these ignorant mistakes. Is there NO way to get a reminder notice to come FROM the list/list-owner, even given the obvious issue with possible multiple lists? I know how mailman works, but these people DON'T. Could there at least be an 'overview' function that recognizes mail sent to 'mailman-request' and gives them a list of commands to manage each list?
For your amusement, and to emphasize my point, here is the message I received as mailman-owner, because user SENT their mail to 'mailman-bounces'..... (go fig)
From mailman-bounces@hwcn.org Wed Aug 5 09:32:50 2009 Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 09:32:49 -0400 From: mailman-bounces@hwcn.org To: mailman-owner@hwcn.org Subject: Uncaught bounce notification
The attached message was received as a bounce, but either the bounce format was not recognized, or no member addresses could be extracted from it. This mailing list has been configured to send all unrecognized bounce messages to the list administrator(s).
For more information see: http://king.hwcn.org/mailman/admin/mailman/bounce
[ Part 2: "Included Message" ]Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 09:35:39 -0400 From: Helen <________@bmts.com> To: mailman-bounces@hwcn.org Subject: Re: The results of your email commands
Could this information possibly be provided in a way that it can be understood ? I would like my subscription to stop on August 09 2009 and resume on September 10 2009.My address is _____@bmts.com password ____. Thank you H. ----- Original Message ----- From: <mailman-bounces@hwcn.org> To: <______@bmts.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 10:22 PM Subject: The results of your email commands
The results of your email command are provided below. Attached is your original message.
- Results: Ignoring non-text/plain MIME parts help Help for Mailman mailing list:
This is email command help for version 2.1.5 of the "Mailman" list manager. The following describes commands you can send to get information about and control your subscription to Mailman lists at this site. A command can be in the subject line or in the body of the message.
Note that much of the following can also be accomplished via the World Wide Web, at:
http://king.hwcn.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman
In particular, you can use the Web site to have your password sent to your delivery address.
List specific commands (subscribe, who, etc) should be sent to the *-request address for the particular list, e.g. for the 'mailman' list, use 'mailman-request@...'.
About the descriptions - words in "<>"s signify REQUIRED items and words in "[]" denote OPTIONAL items. Do not include the "<>"s or "[]"s when you use the commands.
The following commands are valid:
confirm <confirmation-string> Confirm an action. The confirmation-string is required and should be supplied by a mailback confirmation notice.
end Stop processing commands. Use this if your mail program automatically adds a signature file.
help Print this help message.
info Get information about this mailing list.
lists See a list of the public mailing lists on this GNU Mailman server.
password [<oldpassword> <newpassword>] [address=<address>] Retrieve or change your password. With no arguments, this returns your current password. With arguments <oldpassword> and <newpassword> you can change your password.
If you're posting from an address other than your membershipaddress, specify your membership address with `address=<address>' (no brackets around the email address, and no quotes!). Note that in this case the response is always sent to the subscribed address.
set ... Set or view your membership options.
Use `set help' (without the quotes) to get a more detailed list ofthe options you can change.
Use `set show' (without the quotes) to view your current option settings.subscribe [password] [digest|nodigest] [address=<address>] Subscribe to this mailing list. Your password must be given to unsubscribe or change your options, but if you omit the password, one will be generated for you. You may be periodically reminded of your password.
The next argument may be either: `nodigest' or `digest' (noquotes!). If you wish to subscribe an address other than the address you sent this request from, you may specify `address=<address>' (no brackets around the email address, and no quotes!)
unsubscribe [password] [address=<address>] Unsubscribe from the mailing list. If given, your password must match your current password. If omitted, a confirmation email will be sent to the unsubscribing address. If you wish to unsubscribe an address other than the address you sent this request from, you may specify `address=<address>' (no brackets around the email address, and no quotes!)
who password See everyone who is on this mailing list. The roster is limited to list administrators and moderators only; you must supply the list admin or moderator password to retrieve the roster.
Commands should be sent to mailman-request@hwcn.org
Questions and concerns for the attention of a person should be sent to
mailman-owner@hwcn.org
help Help for Mailman mailing list:
This is email command help for version 2.1.5 of the "Mailman" list manager. The following describes commands you can send to get information about and control your subscription to Mailman lists at this site. A command can be in the subject line or in the body of the message.
Note that much of the following can also be accomplished via the World Wide Web, at:
http://king.hwcn.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman
In particular, you can use the Web site to have your password sent to your delivery address.
List specific commands (subscribe, who, etc) should be sent to the *-request address for the particular list, e.g. for the 'mailman' list, use 'mailman-request@...'.
About the descriptions - words in "<>"s signify REQUIRED items and words in "[]" denote OPTIONAL items. Do not include the "<>"s or "[]"s when you use the commands.
The following commands are valid:
confirm <confirmation-string> Confirm an action. The confirmation-string is required and should be supplied by a mailback confirmation notice.
end Stop processing commands. Use this if your mail program automatically adds a signature file.
help Print this help message.
info Get information about this mailing list.
lists See a list of the public mailing lists on this GNU Mailman server.
password [<oldpassword> <newpassword>] [address=<address>] Retrieve or change your password. With no arguments, this returns your current password. With arguments <oldpassword> and <newpassword> you can change your password.
If you're posting from an address other than your membershipaddress, specify your membership address with `address=<address>' (no brackets around the email address, and no quotes!). Note that in this case the response is always sent to the subscribed address.
set ... Set or view your membership options.
Use `set help' (without the quotes) to get a more detailed list ofthe options you can change.
Use `set show' (without the quotes) to view your current option settings.subscribe [password] [digest|nodigest] [address=<address>] Subscribe to this mailing list. Your password must be given to unsubscribe or change your options, but if you omit the password, one will be generated for you. You may be periodically reminded of your password.
The next argument may be either: `nodigest' or `digest' (noquotes!). If you wish to subscribe an address other than the address you sent this request from, you may specify `address=<address>' (no brackets around the email address, and no quotes!)
unsubscribe [password] [address=<address>] Unsubscribe from the mailing list. If given, your password must match your current password. If omitted, a confirmation email will be sent to the unsubscribing address. If you wish to unsubscribe an address other than the address you sent this request from, you may specify `address=<address>' (no brackets around the email address, and no quotes!)
who password See everyone who is on this mailing list. The roster is limited to list administrators and moderators only; you must supply the list admin or moderator password to retrieve the roster.
Commands should be sent to mailman-request@hwcn.org
Questions and concerns for the attention of a person should be sent to
mailman-owner@hwcn.org
- Done.
-- end quote--
=- Charles
- Charles Gregory <cgregory@hwcn.org>:
For your amusement, and to emphasize my point, here is the message I received as mailman-owner, because user SENT their mail to 'mailman-bounces'..... (go fig)
I torture them with an appropriate autodiscard + autoreply
-- Ralf Hildebrandt Geschäftsbereich IT | Abteilung Netzwerk Charité - Universitätsmedizin Berlin Campus Benjamin Franklin Hindenburgdamm 30 | D-12203 Berlin Tel. +49 30 450 570 155 | Fax: +49 30 450 570 962 ralf.hildebrandt@charite.de | http://www.charite.de
On Wed, 5 Aug 2009, Ralf Hildebrandt wrote:
For your amusement, and to emphasize my point, here is the message I received as mailman-owner, because user SENT their mail to 'mailman-bounces'..... (go fig) I torture them with an appropriate autodiscard + autoreply
Well, my form letter has to be sent manually, but it was quite mind-boggling to see such a complex scenario that there wasn't the faintest chance of them interpreting the form letter correctly. :)
- C
Charles Gregory wrote:
Is there NO way to get a reminder notice to come FROM the list/list-owner, even given the obvious issue with possible multiple lists?
It's a simple change. Just send one reminder per list.
But I for one for example receive a reminder every Mailman Day from python.org covering 11 lists. I don't want to receive 11 separate reminders.
Given that periodic password reminders are going away in Mailman 3 anyway, I don't see an urgent need to "fix" this.
I know how mailman works, but these people DON'T. Could there at least be an 'overview' function that recognizes mail sent to 'mailman-request' and gives them a list of commands to manage each list?
If you look carefully at the message you received and quoted, you will see that the user first sent two 'help' commands to mailman-request@hwcn.org, and then replied to the response saying that it couldn't be understood. Perhaps I lack imagination, but I don't know what I'd put in "a list of commands to manage each list" that wouldn't be essentially what's in the response to a 'help' command, so I don't think that would help in this case.
I could change the response to a 'help' command to be From: 'list-owner' instead of 'list-bounces', and I think I will. I suspect it's being From: list-bounces is an artifact from Mailman 2.0 when it was From: list-admin. But, I don't see that helping in your example. It would only remove the 'unrecognized bounce' packaging from the message which would still go to you as owner.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
I agree,
I am subscribed to countless lists over 6 organizations that use mailman one of which I run, there is no way I would want to receive a reminder from each list, it's painful enough now for each organization.
-Bob
On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 2:36 PM, Mark Sapiro<mark@msapiro.net> wrote:
Charles Gregory wrote:
Is there NO way to get a reminder notice to come FROM the list/list-owner, even given the obvious issue with possible multiple lists?
It's a simple change. Just send one reminder per list.
But I for one for example receive a reminder every Mailman Day from python.org covering 11 lists. I don't want to receive 11 separate reminders.
Given that periodic password reminders are going away in Mailman 3 anyway, I don't see an urgent need to "fix" this.
I know how mailman works, but these people DON'T. Could there at least be an 'overview' function that recognizes mail sent to 'mailman-request' and gives them a list of commands to manage each list?
If you look carefully at the message you received and quoted, you will see that the user first sent two 'help' commands to mailman-request@hwcn.org, and then replied to the response saying that it couldn't be understood. Perhaps I lack imagination, but I don't know what I'd put in "a list of commands to manage each list" that wouldn't be essentially what's in the response to a 'help' command, so I don't think that would help in this case.
I could change the response to a 'help' command to be From: 'list-owner' instead of 'list-bounces', and I think I will. I suspect it's being From: list-bounces is an artifact from Mailman 2.0 when it was From: list-admin. But, I don't see that helping in your example. It would only remove the 'unrecognized bounce' packaging from the message which would still go to you as owner.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
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On Wed, 5 Aug 2009, Robert Fishel wrote:
I am subscribed to countless lists over 6 organizations that use mailman one of which I run, there is no way I would want to receive a reminder from each list, it's painful enough now for each organization.
(nod) Perhaps a dash of intelligence in the notice generator, such that if a person is only on one list, they get the mail 'from' their list owner, but from the previously suggested 'trap' address if on more than one list? Cuz really, if you are on more than one list, you've woken up to the fact that you are managing multiple lists, and have to *think* about how to do that. This problem (should) only exists for users who think of our lists as being 'only' the one to which they have subscribed....
- Charles
On Wed, 5 Aug 2009, Mark Sapiro wrote:
Is there NO way to get a reminder notice to come FROM the list/list-owner, even given the obvious issue with possible multiple lists? It's a simple change. Just send one reminder per list.
How can I set that? (mm 2.1.5)
If you look carefully at the message you received and quoted, you will see that the user first sent two 'help' commands to mailman-request@hwcn.org, and then replied to the response saying that it couldn't be understood. Perhaps I lack imagination, but I don't know what I'd put in "a list of commands to manage each list" that wouldn't be essentially what's in the response to a 'help' command, so I don't think that would help in this case.
OMG. You are RIGHT. I just presumed it wasn't in there or 'clear' enough cuz otherwise they'd follow instructions, right? (shake head) F'n stupid users..... Augh.
I could change the response to a 'help' command to be From: 'list-owner' instead of 'list-bounces', and I think I will. I suspect it's being From: list-bounces is an artifact from Mailman 2.0 when it was From: list-admin. But, I don't see that helping in your example. It would only remove the 'unrecognized bounce' packaging from the message which would still go to you as owner.
(nod) Agreed. I just thought the 'bounce' added a layer of humor to the situation. Though I think to be 'interesting', perhaps the 'from:' for such automated replies could be "mailmanhelp", such that anyone stupid enough to 'just click reply' will trigger an autoresponder keyed to that address. One that sends a doubly clear "you have just done something stupid" notice. :)
- Charles
Charles Gregory wrote:
On Wed, 5 Aug 2009, Mark Sapiro wrote:
Is there NO way to get a reminder notice to come FROM the list/list-owner, even given the obvious issue with possible multiple lists? It's a simple change. Just send one reminder per list.
How can I set that? (mm 2.1.5)
The attached mailpasswds.patch.txt file contains a patch to Mailman's cron/mailpasswds that will send individual reminders from each list the the list's members.
It should apply directly to mailman 2.1.5's mailpasswds with only 'fuzz' in the first hunk because of the @PYTHON@ vs. /path/to/python difference, but the resultant patched file should be good.
-- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
participants (4)
-
Charles Gregory -
Mark Sapiro -
Ralf Hildebrandt -
Robert Fishel