Hi,
Does anyone know of a provider who hosts Mailman and who has a good reputation with American ISPs - Verizon and ATT, etc? These providers somehow have notoriety blocking mailing list emails. I'm currently hosting with a provider based in Oz, but having some difficulties when it comes to Verizon and ATT. AOL, Gmail, Hotmail, Outlook, Yahoo etc are all accepting mails, but majority of the subscribers are with Verizon/ATT and that has really affected one list that I have so I need to change.
Please recommend one.
Hi to East Africa
I do not have any information about their "reputation" with Verizon and AT&T, but our organization uses digimouse.eu for mail, mailing lists and web.
You may want to mention my name when contacting them (no, I do not get any compensation for my "advertising").
Christian
Hilfe für Strassenkinder in Ghana: http://www.chance-for-children.org > Odhiambo Washington mailto:odhiambo@gmail.com > 21. Dezember 2016 um 16:46 > Hi, > > Does anyone know of a provider who hosts Mailman and who has a good > reputation with American ISPs - Verizon and ATT, etc? These providers > somehow have notoriety blocking mailing list emails. I'm currently hosting > with a provider based in Oz, but having some difficulties when it comes to > Verizon and ATT. AOL, Gmail, Hotmail, Outlook, Yahoo etc are all accepting > mails, but majority of the subscribers are with Verizon/ATT and that has > really affected one list that I have so I need to change. > > > Please recommend one. >
Just for the record, I have been hosting with mailmanlists.net for the last three or so years and I am very happy with them. The only problem is that one of their co-lo facilities in the US closed down and they had to move to another co-lo. This obviously involved migration of servers/ change of IP addresses and this has not gone well for one of my mailing lists which has so many subscribers on Verizon/ATT. It's the only reason I am looking for a well-known hosting provider which has an already "good reputation" - that Verizon/ATT accepts lists mail from their servers...
On 21 December 2016 at 18:56, Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users < mailman-users@python.org> wrote:
Hi to East Africa
I do not have any information about their "reputation" with Verizon and AT&T, but our organization uses digimouse.eu for mail, mailing lists and web.
You may want to mention my name when contacting them (no, I do not get any compensation for my "advertising").
Christian
-- Christian F. Buser, Hohle Gasse 6, CH-5507 Mellingen (Switzerland) Hilfe für Strassenkinder in Ghana: http://www.chance-for-children.org
Odhiambo Washington mailto:odhiambo@gmail.com 21. Dezember 2016 um 16:46 Hi,
Does anyone know of a provider who hosts Mailman and who has a good reputation with American ISPs - Verizon and ATT, etc? These providers somehow have notoriety blocking mailing list emails. I'm currently
hosting
with a provider based in Oz, but having some difficulties when it comes
to
Verizon and ATT. AOL, Gmail, Hotmail, Outlook, Yahoo etc are all
accepting
mails, but majority of the subscribers are with Verizon/ATT and that has really affected one list that I have so I need to change.
Please recommend one.
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/ma ilman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/odhiam bo%40gmail.com
On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 07:11:16PM +0300, Odhiambo Washington wrote:
one of their co-lo facilities in the US closed down and they had to move to another co-lo. This obviously involved migration of servers/ change of IP addresses and this has not gone well for one of my mailing lists which has
An influx of mail from a new host, rather than a increase over time probably didn't/doesn't help either.
(I've not seen any feature in Mailman that does limiting based on destination, and wouldn't expect that to be a feature of Mailman 2; I might even advocate it should not be a feature in MM3, either.)
Quoting Adam McGreggor (adam-mailman@amyl.org.uk):
On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 07:11:16PM +0300, Odhiambo Washington wrote:
one of their co-lo facilities in the US closed down and they had to move to another co-lo. This obviously involved migration of servers/ change of IP addresses and this has not gone well for one of my mailing lists which has
An influx of mail from a new host, rather than a increase over time probably didn't/doesn't help either.
(I've not seen any feature in Mailman that does limiting based on destination, and wouldn't expect that to be a feature of Mailman 2; I might even advocate it should not be a feature in MM3, either.)
You can do this in the MTA, postfix for example. Doesn't need to be in mailman. I have ridculously low rate limits for a couple of providers (hello Time-Warner).
On 21 December 2016 at 20:09, Adam McGreggor adam-mailman@amyl.org.uk wrote:
On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 07:11:16PM +0300, Odhiambo Washington wrote:
one of their co-lo facilities in the US closed down and they had to move
to
another co-lo. This obviously involved migration of servers/ change of IP addresses and this has not gone well for one of my mailing lists which
has
An influx of mail from a new host, rather than a increase over time probably didn't/doesn't help either.
True. We then migrated the list to another of their servers that already existed, but the rejections became even more.
(I've not seen any feature in Mailman that does limiting based on destination, and wouldn't expect that to be a feature of Mailman 2; I might even advocate it should not be a feature in MM3, either.)
In Exim (MTA) we have a way of doing that. Postfix probably has too. But hey, I digressed just a little.
On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 08:45:35PM +0300, Odhiambo Washington wrote:
True. We then migrated the list to another of their servers that already existed, but the rejections became even more.
I'd still do a gradual ramp-up to N recipients with the 'standard' type of messages/headers/patterns for each new sending pattern, nowadays, rather than just "these IPs have been used before…".
Odhiambo Washington writes:
mails, but majority of the subscribers are with Verizon/ATT and that has really affected one list that I have so I need to change.
Do you have a reason to think a change will help? As you say, they're notorious for blocking list emails. I doubt their criteria are so heavily weighted toward which hosting service you use as to make a big difference here. Rather (as others have suggested) probably any change that involves significant flows of duplicate message-ids from a new source will get blocked. Other than that negative effect, reputation is something that you build over time. Trying to buy it in an instant is not a good bet.
The first thing would be to check that your IPs aren't on any of the RBLs. Seems unlikely since you don't have problems with other providers, but Verizon may have poor taste in RBLs (as they do in so many other ways). If you're on one, you'll be better off if you can get off rather than moving.
Do you know and conform to their acceptable use policies? Have you talked to their support staff? They're the only ones who know what criteria they actually use to decide what to block. I wouldn't be surprised if they just brush you off, but that's the second thing you should try.
Can you get your subscribers to complain? That often has more effect than complaints from a third party.
Steve
Hi Odhiambo and Steve,
I'm one of the co-owners of MailmanLists.net that is mentioned in this post.
As Odhiambo said, we've recently moved one of the servers that hosted Odhiambo's list. This involved a change of IP address, and at the same time the problem with Verizon kicked into play.
All the DNS records (inc SPF, DKIM) are in place, the server is on no RBLs, con-current connections to the recieving mail servers is set at 2 in Postfix. In short, all the right boxes are ticked as far as we can see.
Point noted about the time needed to build a good IP reputation. In light of that, we moved the list to our old established server in Europe. It has a SenderScore of 99, and of course all the same boxes are ticked. Verizon still rejected list mail.
As they have been somewhat resistant to address the issue in any real way, I do agree with Steven that they may listen to loud complaints from their own customers. However, that doesn't help Odhiambo right now.
We haven't brushed Odhiambo off, but rather have worked with him on this problem trying to fix it. However, right now all our best intents are not helping - so any suggestions for a workaround on this would be truly appreciated.
His list has around 400 members, with 70 or so being Verizon customers.
Regards, Mark
======================================== MailmanLists - hosted discussion lists Canberra, Australia Tel: +61 .2 61003121 http://www.mailmanlists.net =======================================
On 22/12/16 15:18, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
Odhiambo Washington writes:
mails, but majority of the subscribers are with Verizon/ATT and that has really affected one list that I have so I need to change.
Do you have a reason to think a change will help? As you say, they're notorious for blocking list emails. I doubt their criteria are so heavily weighted toward which hosting service you use as to make a big difference here. Rather (as others have suggested) probably any change that involves significant flows of duplicate message-ids from a new source will get blocked. Other than that negative effect, reputation is something that you build over time. Trying to buy it in an instant is not a good bet.
The first thing would be to check that your IPs aren't on any of the RBLs. Seems unlikely since you don't have problems with other providers, but Verizon may have poor taste in RBLs (as they do in so many other ways). If you're on one, you'll be better off if you can get off rather than moving.
Do you know and conform to their acceptable use policies? Have you talked to their support staff? They're the only ones who know what criteria they actually use to decide what to block. I wouldn't be surprised if they just brush you off, but that's the second thing you should try.
Can you get your subscribers to complain? That often has more effect than complaints from a third party.
Steve
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/mark%40mailmanlists.ne...
On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 11:42 PM, Mark Dale mark@mailmanlists.net wrote:
Hi Odhiambo and Steve,
I'm one of the co-owners of MailmanLists.net that is mentioned in this post.
As Odhiambo said, we've recently moved one of the servers that hosted Odhiambo's list. This involved a change of IP address, and at the same time the problem with Verizon kicked into play.
All the DNS records (inc SPF, DKIM) are in place, the server is on no RBLs, con-current connections to the recieving mail servers is set at 2 in Postfix. In short, all the right boxes are ticked as far as we can see.
Point noted about the time needed to build a good IP reputation. In light of that, we moved the list to our old established server in Europe. It has a SenderScore of 99, and of course all the same boxes are ticked. Verizon still rejected list mail.
As they have been somewhat resistant to address the issue in any real way, I do agree with Steven that they may listen to loud complaints from their own customers. However, that doesn't help Odhiambo right now.
We haven't brushed Odhiambo off, but rather have worked with him on this problem trying to fix it. However, right now all our best intents are not helping - so any suggestions for a workaround on this would be truly appreciated.
A good place to start is on the mailop list, explain your company and sign-up practices/filtering, etc. Be open and ask for specific reps to contact you offline if necessary. You may get some awesome help, although this close to the holidays your message may not hit the right people until next year.
https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
-Jim P.
Thanks for the suggestion on the mailop list Jim.
Verizon began accepting mail again for lists on the European server about 6 hours ago.
No light was shed as to why or what changed their view. Not only Verizon but AT&T as well, at around the same time - a little puzzle that's probably best left alone.
It may be that their default position is to block all list mail regardless - until they get swamped with complaints.
I've subscribed to the mailop list as you suggest, and if I learn anything relevant to this issue I'll post it back here.
Thanks, Mark
======================================== MailmanLists - hosted discussion lists Canberra, Australia Tel: +61 .2 61003121 http://www.mailmanlists.net =======================================
On 22/12/16 16:15, Jim Popovitch wrote:
On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 11:42 PM, Mark Dale mark@mailmanlists.net wrote:
...
All the DNS records (inc SPF, DKIM) are in place, the server is on no RBLs, con-current connections to the recieving mail servers is set at 2 in Postfix. In short, all the right boxes are ticked as far as we can see.
Point noted about the time needed to build a good IP reputation. In light of that, we moved the list to our old established server in Europe. It has a SenderScore of 99, and of course all the same boxes are ticked. Verizon still rejected list mail.
...
A good place to start is on the mailop list, explain your company and sign-up practices/filtering, etc. Be open and ask for specific reps to contact you offline if necessary. You may get some awesome help, although this close to the holidays your message may not hit the right people until next year.
Maybe they were using some type of grey listing.
For those who don't know: Grey listing is where the target MTA rejects with a retry error code the email from a new source for some period of time. Every site can set their own delay. Most spammers won't retry so it gets rid of a lot of spam. Real email servers will accept the retry error (4xx) and retry after some prefigured time from a few seconds to an hour or more. The IP addresses are tracked and if retried after the time limit are white listed for anywhere from a few hours to a month or more.
On 12/23/2016 1:40 AM, Mark Dale wrote:
Thanks for the suggestion on the mailop list Jim.
Verizon began accepting mail again for lists on the European server about 6 hours ago.
No light was shed as to why or what changed their view. Not only Verizon but AT&T as well, at around the same time - a little puzzle that's probably best left alone.
It may be that their default position is to block all list mail regardless - until they get swamped with complaints.
I've subscribed to the mailop list as you suggest, and if I learn anything relevant to this issue I'll post it back here.
Thanks, Mark
======================================== MailmanLists - hosted discussion lists Canberra, Australia Tel: +61 .2 61003121 http://www.mailmanlists.net =======================================
On 22/12/16 16:15, Jim Popovitch wrote:
On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 11:42 PM, Mark Dale mark@mailmanlists.net wrote:
...
All the DNS records (inc SPF, DKIM) are in place, the server is on no RBLs, con-current connections to the recieving mail servers is set at 2 in Postfix. In short, all the right boxes are ticked as far as we can see.
Point noted about the time needed to build a good IP reputation. In light of that, we moved the list to our old established server in Europe. It has a SenderScore of 99, and of course all the same boxes are ticked. Verizon still rejected list mail.
...
A good place to start is on the mailop list, explain your company and sign-up practices/filtering, etc. Be open and ask for specific reps to contact you offline if necessary. You may get some awesome help, although this close to the holidays your message may not hit the right people until next year.
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/guest2%40sgeinc.com
On 23 December 2016 at 17:36, Richard Shetron guest2@sgeinc.com wrote:
Maybe they were using some type of grey listing.
For those who don't know: Grey listing is where the target MTA rejects with a retry error code the email from a new source for some period of time. Every site can set their own delay. Most spammers won't retry so it gets rid of a lot of spam. Real email servers will accept the retry error (4xx) and retry after some prefigured time from a few seconds to an hour or more. The IP addresses are tracked and if retried after the time limit are white listed for anywhere from a few hours to a month or more.
I know Exim will only treat a session as a failure if it gets 5xx. Does Postfix do the same?
On 12/23/2016 06:50 AM, Odhiambo Washington wrote:
I know Exim will only treat a session as a failure if it gets 5xx. Does Postfix do the same?
Yes, mostly. Postfix treats any 4xx as retryable and retries at configured intervals until the message is delivered or maximal_queue_lifetime (default 5 days) expires. After maximal_queue_lifetime the message is considered undeliverable (failure).
That's what Exim does, unless the sysadmin changes things!
On 23 December 2016 at 20:21, Mark Sapiro mark@msapiro.net wrote:
On 12/23/2016 06:50 AM, Odhiambo Washington wrote:
I know Exim will only treat a session as a failure if it gets 5xx. Does Postfix do the same?
Yes, mostly. Postfix treats any 4xx as retryable and retries at configured intervals until the message is delivered or maximal_queue_lifetime (default 5 days) expires. After maximal_queue_lifetime the message is considered undeliverable (failure).
-- Mark Sapiro mark@msapiro.net The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/ mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/ odhiambo%40gmail.com
Postfix is the same. I had to install a greylisting package to add greylisting to postfix.
On 12/23/2016 9:50 AM, Odhiambo Washington wrote:
On 23 December 2016 at 17:36, Richard Shetron <guest2@sgeinc.com mailto:guest2@sgeinc.com> wrote:
Maybe they were using some type of grey listing. For those who don't know: Grey listing is where the target MTA rejects with a retry error code the email from a new source for some period of time. Every site can set their own delay. Most spammers won't retry so it gets rid of a lot of spam. Real email servers will accept the retry error (4xx) and retry after some prefigured time from a few seconds to an hour or more. The IP addresses are tracked and if retried after the time limit are white listed for anywhere from a few hours to a month or more.I know Exim will only treat a session as a failure if it gets 5xx. Does Postfix do the same?
-- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254 7 3200 0004/+254 7 2274 3223 "Oh, the cruft."
Okay, so Exim and Postfix act the same in their default configs unless one changes it. Mark (Dale), does your Postfix act the same way? I think it doesn't and maybe it's something you need to take a second look at??
On 23 December 2016 at 22:17, Richard Shetron guest2@sgeinc.com wrote:
Postfix is the same. I had to install a greylisting package to add greylisting to postfix.
On 12/23/2016 9:50 AM, Odhiambo Washington wrote:
On 23 December 2016 at 17:36, Richard Shetron <guest2@sgeinc.com mailto:guest2@sgeinc.com> wrote:
Maybe they were using some type of grey listing. For those who don't know: Grey listing is where the target MTA rejects with a retry error code the email from a new source for some period of time. Every site can set their own delay. Most spammers won't retry so it gets rid of a lot of spam. Real email servers will accept the retry error (4xx) and retry after some prefigured time from a few seconds to an hour or more. The IP addresses are tracked and if retried after the time limit are white listed for anywhere from a few hours to a month ormore.
I know Exim will only treat a session as a failure if it gets 5xx. Does Postfix do the same?
-- Best regards, Odhiambo WASHINGTON, Nairobi,KE +254 7 3200 0004/+254 7 2274 3223 "Oh, the cruft."
On 12/23/2016 11:24 AM, Odhiambo Washington wrote:
Okay, so Exim and Postfix act the same in their default configs unless one changes it. Mark (Dale), does your Postfix act the same way? I think it doesn't and maybe it's something you need to take a second look at??
Why do you think this? Other than one other poster's conjecture that greylisting might be involved (I don't think so, but ...), I see nothing in this thread to indicate that Postfix is not treating 4xx status as retryable.
Odhiambo Washington writes:
Okay, so Exim and Postfix act the same in their default configs unless one changes it. Mark (Dale), does your Postfix act the same way? I think it doesn't and maybe it's something you need to take a second look at??
Mark Dale's posts demonstrate knows his business well, so I guess that's not a problem unless you have direct evidence otherwise.
You may as well calm down. Your target subscriber population uses ISPs-that-suck and MUAs-that-suck and generally technology-that-sucks. Just plan on that basis.
Those are facts, and you (f.v.o. "you" = "all of us", including your provider) can't do jack about those facts, except prepare workarounds for them. Stay close to your provider, keep him happy, and feel free to post questions here in emergencies.
Sometimes you get lucky. For example, on the software development lists I manage, almost all users use Emacs-based MUAs or mutt. That's as close to heaven as a list owner can get. When it comes to DMARC and my educational mailing lists, my employer's regulator (the Japanese Ministry of Education Et Cetera) forbids use of Yahoo! mailboxes, so I can too. Paradise! When you run into such luck in your job or business, exploit it!
But that's just pure luck I did nothing to deserve and don't know how to regenerate. It's not reality for most list owners, and almost certainly I won't be so lucky in my future projects, either.
Steve
Mark Dale writes:
We haven't brushed Odhiambo off, but rather have worked with him on this problem trying to fix it. However,
I'm sorry if I gave the impression that you did, everything Odhiambo wrote indicates that you have been very helpful, and I took that for granted. By support staff, I meant at Verizon, and I meant that the large services (all of them, not just Verizon) often do brush off issues presented by mailing lists, claiming that the mailing lists do not conform to accepted practice (when it's the large services who came in late and helped wreck the party :-( ).
Steve
participants (9)
-
Adam McGreggor -
Christian F Buser -
ddewey＠cyberthugs.com -
Jim Popovitch -
Mark Dale -
Mark Sapiro -
Odhiambo Washington -
Richard Shetron -
Stephen J. Turnbull